• https://wiki.debian.org/DotFiles

    From peter@easthope.ca@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 19 17:40:01 2025
    Hi,

    Debian 12 here, obtained by upgrading Debian 11.

    In https://wiki.debian.org/DotFiles the sixth paragraph states, "You
    should therefore always have command source ~/.bashrc at the end of
    your .bash_profile in order to force it to be read by a login shell."

    # ls ~/.bash_profile
    ls: cannot access '/home/root/.bash_profile': No such file or directory

    So the DotFiles page isn't consistent with Debian 12. Also, DotFiles
    isn't linked under https://wiki.debian.org/BootProcess#Articles .

    Suggested improvements? I think of integrating some DotFiles
    information into the BootProcess page. The DotFiles page can be
    improved by separating cases with headings such as "Text console
    login", "SSH login", "X window manager login", "Wayland login", "X
    Window System startup after console login" and "Wayland login after
    console login".

    Further ideas?

    Thx, ... P.


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  • From Greg Wooledge@21:1/5 to peter@easthope.ca on Sat Apr 19 17:50:01 2025
    On Sat, Apr 19, 2025 at 08:12:02 -0700, peter@easthope.ca wrote:
    In https://wiki.debian.org/DotFiles the sixth paragraph states, "You
    should therefore always have command source ~/.bashrc at the end of
    your .bash_profile in order to force it to be read by a login shell."

    Just FYI, that page is essentially an older version of <https://mywiki.wooledge.org/DotFiles>. If you want to attempt to merge
    the changes from the latter page into the wiki.debian.org page, feel
    free.

    I don't remember exactly when Debian decided to go with ~/.profile
    instead of ~/.bash_profile but it's been a very long time. The advantage
    for you, if you're editing the wiki.debian.org page, is that you *only*
    have to worry about Debian systems, whereas I have to try to cover *all* Linux-based systems.

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to Greg Wooledge on Sat Apr 19 19:40:01 2025
    My advice to OP would be: first of all, before considering improving the
    page, is it worth keeping? Does it offer value? Second, I encourage you
    to discuss suggestions on a wiki Discussion page. I've added a link for
    one to the DotFiles page, it points here: https://wiki.debian.org/DotFiles/Discussion

    On Sat Apr 19, 2025 at 4:40 PM BST, Greg Wooledge wrote:
    Just FYI, that page is essentially an older version of <https://mywiki.wooledge.org/DotFiles>. If you want to attempt to merge
    the changes from the latter page into the wiki.debian.org page, feel
    free.

    IMHO, at the very least we should link to your page, and this also
    reinforces my thoughts about the first step above: is there any value in
    the page on the Debian wiki?

    Aside, with my "concerned about content licensing hat on"; and I note
    the paragraph on your wiki's front page. You are the principal but not
    sole author of the page on your site, I see; do you have a view on what license you consider the material to be under?


    Thanks!

    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From Greg Wooledge@21:1/5 to Jonathan Dowland on Sat Apr 19 20:40:01 2025
    On Sat, Apr 19, 2025 at 18:34:07 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
    Aside, with my "concerned about content licensing hat on"; and I note the paragraph on your wiki's front page. You are the principal but not sole author of the page on your site, I see; do you have a view on what license you consider the material to be under?

    I wrote the original page on the previous Debian wiki, which was, I
    believe, hosted by tarzeau (Gurkan Sengun). I copied the content to
    my own wiki later, and then the new Debian wiki got a copy of it from
    tarzeau's wiki. After that, the pages diverged.

    I don't know how to handle copyrights and licenses on wiki pages.
    Personally, I consider anything I put on any wiki to be public domain,
    and people can do whatever they want with it.

    More concerning, I believe, is how out of date a lot of the information
    is. Logins have become *much* more complicated in the last few years, especially with systemd involved. The old days, where I could understand
    all the pieces and describe how each piece worked, are long gone.

    I don't know whether *anyone* understands how logins work now. If they
    do, they're not documenting it anywhere I've seen.

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  • From Greg Wooledge@21:1/5 to Max Nikulin on Sun Apr 20 05:40:01 2025
    On Sun, Apr 20, 2025 at 10:32:37 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
    P.S. DotFiles does not mention that PATH may be set through /etc/login.defs.

    I don't think this is true; it changed in Debian 10 when the shadow-utils
    suite was dropped in favor of util-linux.

    hobbit:~$ man login.defs
    [...]
    BUGS
    Much of the functionality that used to be provided by the shadow
    password suite is now handled by PAM. Thus, /etc/login.defs is no
    longer used by passwd(1), or less used by login(1), and su(1). Please
    refer to the corresponding PAM configuration files instead.

    SEE ALSO
    login(1), passwd(1), su(1), passwd(5), shadow(5), pam(8).

    shadow-utils 4.13 03/23/2023 LOGIN.DEFS(5) hobbit:~$ su --version
    su from util-linux 2.38.1

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  • From George at Clug@21:1/5 to peter@easthope.ca on Sun Apr 20 16:00:01 2025
    On Sunday, 20-04-2025 at 01:12 peter@easthope.ca wrote:
    Hi,

    Debian 12 here, obtained by upgrading Debian 11.

    In https://wiki.debian.org/DotFiles the sixth paragraph states, "You
    should therefore always have command source ~/.bashrc at the end of
    your .bash_profile in order to force it to be read by a login shell."

    # ls ~/.bash_profile
    ls: cannot access '/home/root/.bash_profile': No such file or directory

    Peter,

    Please excuse my ignorance, but how did you manage to get the folder "/home/root/" when running "ls ~/.bash_profile" as root?

    To my knowledge root's home directory should be /root, not /home/root.

    For me:
    # ls ~/.bash_profile
    /root/.bash_profile

    Did you create a user by the name "root" ?

    George.



    So the DotFiles page isn't consistent with Debian 12. Also, DotFiles
    isn't linked under https://wiki.debian.org/BootProcess#Articles .

    Suggested improvements? I think of integrating some DotFiles
    information into the BootProcess page. The DotFiles page can be
    improved by separating cases with headings such as "Text console
    login", "SSH login", "X window manager login", "Wayland login", "X
    Window System startup after console login" and "Wayland login after
    console login".

    Further ideas?

    Thx, ... P.


    --
    VoIP: +1 604 670 0140
    work: en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:PeterEasthope



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  • From David Wright@21:1/5 to George at Clug on Sun Apr 20 19:00:01 2025
    On Sun 20 Apr 2025 at 23:55:22 (+1000), George at Clug wrote:
    On Sunday, 20-04-2025 at 01:12 peter@easthope.ca wrote:
    Debian 12 here, obtained by upgrading Debian 11.

    In https://wiki.debian.org/DotFiles the sixth paragraph states, "You
    should therefore always have command source ~/.bashrc at the end of
    your .bash_profile in order to force it to be read by a login shell."

    # ls ~/.bash_profile
    ls: cannot access '/home/root/.bash_profile': No such file or directory

    Please excuse my ignorance, but how did you manage to get the folder "/home/root/" when running "ls ~/.bash_profile" as root?

    To my knowledge root's home directory should be /root, not /home/root.

    For me:
    # ls ~/.bash_profile
    /root/.bash_profile

    Did you create a user by the name "root" ?

    To save a rehash, see the thread:

    https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2022/02/msg00035.html

    Cheers,
    David.

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  • From Jonathan Dowland@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 22 10:10:01 2025
    Hi Greg, at al;

    In light of the page's provenance, and the fact Greg's wiki is more
    up-to-date (and likely to always remain so), I've proposed we delete the
    copy on the Debian Wiki, and just link to Greg's, instead. I feel this
    is the most pragmatic choice, to make sure people get the best content
    without duplication of effort.

    If anyone has opinions on that course of action, the discussion page is
    the place to share them: <https://wiki.debian.org/DotFiles/Discussion>.
    I won't delete the page if there's unresolved objections, and I'll wait
    2 weeks in any case.

    --
    Please do not CC me for listmail.

    👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
    jmtd@debian.org
    🔗 https://jmtd.net

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  • From peter@easthope.ca@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 4 19:00:01 2025
    From: Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org>
    Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2025 11:40:52 -0400
    Just FYI, that page is essentially an older version of <https://mywiki.wooledge.org/DotFiles>.

    Thanks. A much better document. Jonathan added a link to it. https://wiki.debian.org/DotFiles

    If you want to attempt to merge the changes from the latter page
    into the wiki.debian.org page, feel free.

    Thanks. System startup, user authentication, authorization and
    graphical system startup are complex subjects. Then there are many
    ways to assemble into a working system. My knowledge doesn't qualify
    well to document the subject. =8~/

    This documentation task is analogous to writing a recipe for a cake.
    Which cake? Thousands of cake recipes exist and everyone has a
    preference. No recipe is widely accepted for any purpose. Eg., in
    some cultures a wedding cake is a plain vanilla cake. In other
    cultures, a fruitcake with marzipan and icing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_cake
    And some people won't eat fruitcake. =8~/

    A personal workstation can be a straightforward tool. Yet confusion
    between familiarity and feasibility gives arguments reminiscent of
    religion. Achieving and documenting a good personal workstation is a challenge.

    Thx, ... P.

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  • From peter@easthope.ca@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 4 20:00:02 2025
    From: George at Clug <Clug@goproject.info>
    Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2025 23:55:22 +1000
    Please excuse my ignorance, but how did you manage to get the folder "/home/root/" when running "ls ~/.bash_profile" as root?

    To my knowledge root's home directory should be /root, not
    /home/root.

    Ref. https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2022/02/msg00080.html

    Yes, the installer gives root home directory /root. In msg00080.html
    I mentioned "ln -s /home/root /root". Subsequently realized that
    changing /root to /home/root with vipw is more direct. https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2022/02/msg00120.html

    Incidentally, regarding perpetual root, David mentioned "You may hit
    snags." I appreciate that but the system has worked this way for over
    three years with no significant difficulties. At one time, root might
    have had difficulties with graphical usage; not problematic now.

    I kept ordinary user "peter" from the installation process and use it
    rarely. Such as for sftp transfers with a mobile device.

    In case of catastrophe, Debian installation is fairly painless. A few
    hours. Configuration details can absorb painful amounts of time and
    notes are invaluable when "rebuilding the wheel". Haven't had a
    catastrophe yet but have installed on new-to-me machines.

    Regards, ... P.





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  • From David Wright@21:1/5 to Greg Wooledge on Mon May 5 06:20:01 2025
    On Sat 19 Apr 2025 at 11:40:52 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
    On Sat, Apr 19, 2025 at 08:12:02 -0700, peter@easthope.ca wrote:
    In https://wiki.debian.org/DotFiles the sixth paragraph states, "You
    should therefore always have command source ~/.bashrc at the end of
    your .bash_profile in order to force it to be read by a login shell."

    I don't remember exactly when Debian decided to go with ~/.profile
    instead of ~/.bash_profile but it's been a very long time. The advantage
    for you, if you're editing the wiki.debian.org page, is that you *only*
    have to worry about Debian systems, whereas I have to try to cover *all* Linux-based systems.

    AFAICT, in version 3.2-2 April 2008, so in time for lenny as 3.2-4.
    The change is described oddly:

    bash (3.2-2) unstable; urgency=low
    * Merge from Ubuntu:
    - Remove /etc/skel/.bash_profile, if it is unmodified; if modified and
    /etc/skel/.profile is unmodifed, move .bash_profile to .profile.

    The filename ~/.bash_profile has still not been eliminated from the
    package (README.Debian, kind of FAQ, #5). I've never made the change
    to .profile, finding it convenient for all my bash initialisation
    files to start with .bash…… .

    Things change slowly, it seems. For example, it was requested that
    the .bashrc test for interactivity be changed from PS1 to -i at about
    the same time in 2008, but was not corrected until 2012, in time for
    wheezy. (I don't see any report of the "bug", 482194, being
    reproduced by anyone, and I didn't catch up with the change for
    another nine years, as you may or may not remember.)

    Cheers,
    David.

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