Hello Debian-users,

I have been delayed with upgrading my debian distro, and want to upgrade
to 12. According to the documentation, I should remove all non-debian applications first, before upgrading. Almost all the applications I use
are non-debian (postfix, dovecot, apache, mysql, etc..), so it almost
makes it seem like I should just do a full new install??

I have been running a mail server, webserver, cloud (nextcloud), etc...
for the past decade, updating as time went along. However, for personal reasons, I have let this slide longer than I would like to admit, so now
it's time to "get it done."

I was planning on backing up everything (via Clonezilla) so I would have
a "reliable backup," but that only half helps, because I would still be
back where I started from. Here...

I have done upgrades in the past, 8->9, 9->10, etc..and with a little
pain was just able to upgrade the system without removing previous
versions, and tweak some files that didn't work anymore.

Thinking out loud, I guess best bet would be to backup the systems most important to me (outside of clonezilla), and just re-apply the
configuration files after a re-install of the required software systems?

So, now I guess my question becomes...ultimately:

"What is the difference between upgrading my system (after remove all non-debian apps) and simply doing a brand new, clean install??"

"Is one better than the other??

Thanks, and Happy Holidays.

Thomas Anderson

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Hi,

On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 07:39:23PM +0100, Thomas Anderson wrote:

I have been delayed with upgrading my debian distro, and want to upgrade to 12. According to the documentation, I should remove all non-debian applications first, before upgrading. Almost all the applications I use are non-debian (postfix, dovecot, apache, mysql, etc..), so it almost makes it seem like I should just do a full new install??

The advice to "remove all non-Debian applications first" means to remove
things installed from non-Debian package repositories. It seems unlikely
that you have installed postfix, dovecot, apache, mysql, etc. from
outside of Debian, i.e. from third party repositories. If you have
installed them from the main Debian archive then that's fine.

Thinking out loud, I guess best bet would be to backup the systems most important to me (outside of clonezilla), and just re-apply the configuration files after a re-install of the required software systems?

Do you really need to remove any software? Most people don't need to.

"What is the difference between upgrading my system (after remove all non-debian apps) and simply doing a brand new, clean install??"

"Is one better than the other??

If you have good backups of your configuration and user data and a good understanding of what will change with the new versions of all your apps
then a reinstall can often make for a shorter downtime than an in-place upgrade. Taken to the extreme, one can automate a reinstall a bit easier
than one can automate an upgrade, and have it done in a matter of
minutes.

The hardest part of any upgrade is when the new versions of the packages
are configured in different ways. You can go into it blind either with a reinstall or an upgrade and who knows how long it will take for you to
work out what has changed, how it changed and how to make it work again.

Sometimes when the changes are extensive (like a whole restructuring of
config layout for example) then trying to change in place what you had
before to what is now required can be rather confusing, while looking
what the new default is and adjusting that to be how you want may be
easier.

It is still largely a matter of taste and I expect you will get replies
saying they have never reinstalled since Debian 0.90 and never had a
problem.

I upgrade in place a lot, sometimes even when I know it will probably
be faster/simpler to reinstall.

Thanks,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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Thanks Andy!

I did get them from Debian sources, so I should be good.

Per your advice, I will go through and read about changes, and see what
I need to be mindful of. Of course, I will backup everything first. =)

Thanks for clarifying the part about remove "non-debian source"
software, which I don't think I have anything (of value), that doesn't
come directly from Debian source repos =)

I like to keep things simple. I guess get started with the backup =)

Cheers.

On 26/12/2024 20:11, Andy Smith wrote:

Hi,

On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 07:39:23PM +0100, Thomas Anderson wrote:

I have been delayed with upgrading my debian distro, and want to upgrade to >> 12. According to the documentation, I should remove all non-debian
applications first, before upgrading. Almost all the applications I use are >> non-debian (postfix, dovecot, apache, mysql, etc..), so it almost makes it >> seem like I should just do a full new install??

The advice to "remove all non-Debian applications first" means to remove things installed from non-Debian package repositories. It seems unlikely
that you have installed postfix, dovecot, apache, mysql, etc. from
outside of Debian, i.e. from third party repositories. If you have
installed them from the main Debian archive then that's fine.

Thinking out loud, I guess best bet would be to backup the systems most
important to me (outside of clonezilla), and just re-apply the configuration >> files after a re-install of the required software systems?

Do you really need to remove any software? Most people don't need to.

"What is the difference between upgrading my system (after remove all
non-debian apps) and simply doing a brand new, clean install??"

"Is one better than the other??

If you have good backups of your configuration and user data and a good understanding of what will change with the new versions of all your apps
then a reinstall can often make for a shorter downtime than an in-place upgrade. Taken to the extreme, one can automate a reinstall a bit easier
than one can automate an upgrade, and have it done in a matter of
minutes.

The hardest part of any upgrade is when the new versions of the packages
are configured in different ways. You can go into it blind either with a reinstall or an upgrade and who knows how long it will take for you to
work out what has changed, how it changed and how to make it work again.

Sometimes when the changes are extensive (like a whole restructuring of config layout for example) then trying to change in place what you had
before to what is now required can be rather confusing, while looking
what the new default is and adjusting that to be how you want may be
easier.

It is still largely a matter of taste and I expect you will get replies saying they have never reinstalled since Debian 0.90 and never had a
problem.

I upgrade in place a lot, sometimes even when I know it will probably
be faster/simpler to reinstall.

Thanks,
Andy

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Thomas Anderson writes:

Almost all the applications I use are non-debian (postfix, dovecot,
apache, mysql, etc..)

Why? All of those are in Debian. If you were using the Debian packages upgrading would be easy.
--
John Hasler
john@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

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On Thu, 2024-12-26 at 13:52 -0600, John Hasler wrote:

Thomas Anderson writes:

Almost all the applications I use are non-debian (postfix, dovecot,
apache, mysql, etc..)

Why? All of those are in Debian. If you were using the Debian packages upgrading would be easy.

To nitpick, I don't think Debian ships mysql anymore (it's mariadb
instead). It might be somewhat common to install the actual mysql from Oracle's APT repository.

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