• Re: Thanks and Tail of the ratt - New test proposal

    From Phil Wyett@21:1/5 to Salvo Tomaselli on Sat Jan 25 11:40:01 2025
    On Thu, 2025-01-23 at 19:27 +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
    Hello,

    * Debian testing on a i5-8265U, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop.
    * RHEL 9.x on a Ultra 7 155H, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop. This has a 100GB   Debian testing builder VM. Many other test VMs.

    That is certainly more than what I have at home. I hope it can handle it. Otherwise you are completely free to revert of course.

    The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the base and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my pain and lack of mobility (cannot walk more than 10m at a time).

    I'm really sorry to hear this.

    I'm disabled myself, though of course completely different circumstances and situation than you.

    As you say, exceptions. ratt is not for all packages, the test is certainly none blocking, but I hope any issues raised having the test will make for good bug reports, communication and avoid unnecessary breakage.

    It seems I have no objections then.


    Hi Salvo,

    You have difficulties also and I commend you for your work here in Mentors and elsewhere in Debian.

    Cool. I am not going to going mad with the ratt testing. Hopefully it can assist on occasion only.

    Regards

    Phil

    --

    Donations...

    Buy Me A Coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

    --

    "I play the game for the game’s own sake"

    Arthur Conan Doyle - The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans

    --

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  • From Phil Wyett@21:1/5 to Soren Stoutner on Sat Jan 25 11:40:01 2025
    On Thu, 2025-01-23 at 11:02 -0700, Soren Stoutner wrote:
    On Thursday, January 23, 2025 3:47:56 AM MST Phil Wyett wrote:
    The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the base
    and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my pain and lack of mobility (cannot walk more than 10m at a time).

    I’m very sorry to hear that, but I am glad you are doing positive things with
    your time even though you have to deal with significant pain.
     
    As you say, exceptions. ratt is not for all packages, the test is certainly none blocking, but I hope any issues raised having the test will make for good
    bug reports, communication and avoid unnecessary breakage.

    I applaud your efforts.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    Hi Soren,

    Debian is a great place to give time. Debian offers fun, thinking, learning, community and diversity that is good for any person; and you get a great OS as pert of the deal.

    Many thanks Soren.

    Regards

    Phil

    --

    Donations...

    Buy Me A Coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

    --

    "I play the game for the game’s own sake"

    Arthur Conan Doyle - The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans

    --

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    Website: https://kathenas.org

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  • From Phil Wyett@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 22 21:20:01 2025
    Hi all,

    With the enthusiasm of package submitters/maintainers and the increased support of Debian Maintainers and Debian Developers, the number of packages on Mentors is at a manageable level. For this I thank everyone involved and I hope we can get better in the future.

    I propose now we add a new test to the tests currently run against packages.

    ratt:

    * https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/ratt
    * https://manpages.debian.org/unstable/ratt/ratt.1.en.html

    ratt (“Rebuild All The Things!”) operates on a Debian .changes file of a just-
    built package, identifies all reverse-build-dependencies and rebuilds them with the .debs from the .changes file.

    The intended use-case is, for example, to package a new snapshot of a Go library and verify that the new version does not break any other Go libraries/binaries.

    ratt need not be run against architecture 'all' packages, so for these it will be a 'N/A' result.

    Your thoughts?

    Regards

    Phil

    --

    Donations...

    Buy Me A Coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

    --

    "I play the game for the game’s own sake"

    Arthur Conan Doyle - The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans

    --

    Internet Relay Chat (IRC): kathenas

    Website: https://kathenas.org

    Instagram: https://instagram.com/kathenasorg

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  • From Salvo Tomaselli@21:1/5 to Debian Mentors on Thu Jan 23 00:41:03 2025
    Copy: philip.wyett@kathenas.org

    Hello,

    let me start thanking you for your work weeding the RFS bugs, it has been really really useful.

    I've become a DD in the end of 2023 so it's still fresh in my mind the frustration of getting something sponsored :D

    The description of ratt only mentions go, does it work/is it useful for other languages as well?

    And can your infrastructure support it?

    In the python team it has happened to me that an upload breaks other stuff, and then I have to find out after the fact what got broken and also fix the other things. In general breaking other stuff isn't an argument against uploading per se, but indicates that more uploads become needed, so while a good test in general, I think there might be exceptions to the rule.

    --
    Salvo Tomaselli

    "Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno."
    -- Galileo Galilei

    https://ltworf.codeberg.page/
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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Julien_Plissonneau_Duqu=C@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 23 09:30:01 2025
    Le 2025-01-22 21:15, Phil Wyett a écrit :

    ratt (“Rebuild All The Things!”) operates on a Debian .changes file of
    a just-
    built package, identifies all reverse-build-dependencies and rebuilds
    them with
    the .debs from the .changes file.

    The intended use-case is, for example, to package a new snapshot of a
    Go
    library and verify that the new version does not break any other Go libraries/binaries.

    ratt need not be run against architecture 'all' packages, so for these
    it will
    be a 'N/A' result.

    Java libraries are architecture:all, and some updates are breaking
    builds (typical causes are that some artifact got renamed, that a
    deprecated API got finally removed, or sometimes plain old API/ABI incompatibilities). Why should they not need this?

    The issue I have with that new test (and also with autopkgtests to some
    extent) is that the so-called "regressions" are automatically attributed
    to the updated package. This is fair as long as the update is expected
    not to break things, and while some upstream projects are reasonably conservative in their attempts to keep things compatible, for some
    others it's clearly not among their priorities.

    Also some packages may have many reverse dependencies, and some that are
    fairly heavy to build and test. Expect a few cases to need several hours
    to complete the rebuilds on a dedicated system.

    But I think it's a good thing to know in advance which packages (if any)
    are going to be broken by an update, and to notify their maintainers as
    a courtesy, eventually telling them what they are expected to update.

    Cheers,

    --
    Julien Plissonneau Duquène

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  • From Phil Wyett@21:1/5 to Salvo Tomaselli on Thu Jan 23 12:00:01 2025
    On Thu, 2025-01-23 at 00:41 +0100, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:
    Hello,

    let me start thanking you for your work weeding the RFS bugs, it has been really really useful.

    I've become a DD in the end of 2023 so it's still fresh in my mind the frustration of getting something sponsored :D

    The description of ratt only mentions go, does it work/is it useful for other languages as well?

    And can your infrastructure support it?

    In the python team it has happened to me that an upload breaks other stuff, and
    then I have to find out after the fact what got broken and also fix the other things. In general breaking other stuff isn't an argument against uploading per
    se, but indicates that more uploads become needed, so while a good test in general, I think there might be exceptions to the rule.


    Hi Salvo,

    Many thanks for your kind words. I do my little bit like yourself and others for the better Debian we strive to deliver to users.

    Yes, the description is a bit Go centric, but it is useful for other arch dependant packages. A little more information is available in the 'README.md' in its Salsa repo, see link below.

    https://salsa.debian.org/go-team/packages/ratt

    I hope having this test leads to feedback to the 'ratt' package and improve it for all. I think the use of 'licenserecon - lrc' has led to increased user usage and useful feedback to that package and I hope the same for 'ratt'.

    My infrastructure is primarily two laptops.

    * Debian testing on a i5-8265U, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop.
    * RHEL 9.x on a Ultra 7 155H, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop. This has a 100GB
    Debian testing builder VM. Many other test VMs.

    The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the base and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my pain and lack of mobility (cannot walk more than 10m at a time).

    As you say, exceptions. ratt is not for all packages, the test is certainly none blocking, but I hope any issues raised having the test will make for good bug reports, communication and avoid unnecessary breakage.

    Regards

    Phil

    --

    Donations...

    Buy Me A Coffee: https://buymeacoffee.com/kathenasorg

    --

    "I play the game for the game’s own sake"

    Arthur Conan Doyle - The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans

    --

    Internet Relay Chat (IRC): kathenas

    Website: https://kathenas.org

    Instagram: https://instagram.com/kathenasorg

    Threads: https://www.threads.net/@kathenasorg

    --


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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to Debian Mentors on Thu Jan 23 11:02:11 2025
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart2382556.n0HT0TaD9V
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

    On Thursday, January 23, 2025 3:47:56 AM MST Phil Wyett wrote:
    The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the base and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my pain and lack of mobility (cannot walk more than 10m at a time).

    I’m very sorry to hear that, but I am glad you are doing positive things with your time even
    though you have to deal with significant pain.

    As you say, exceptions. ratt is not for all packages, the test is certainly none blocking, but I hope any issues raised having the test will make for good
    bug reports, communication and avoid unnecessary breakage.

    I applaud your efforts.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --nextPart2382556.n0HT0TaD9V
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On Thursday, January 23, 2025 3:47:56 AM MST Phil Wyett wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the base</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my pain and</p>
    <
  • From Salvo Tomaselli@21:1/5 to Debian Mentors on Thu Jan 23 19:27:48 2025
    Hello,

    * Debian testing on a i5-8265U, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop.
    * RHEL 9.x on a Ultra 7 155H, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVME laptop. This has a 100GB
    Debian testing builder VM. Many other test VMs.

    That is certainly more than what I have at home. I hope it can handle it. Otherwise you are completely free to revert of course.

    The biggest thing I have is time, the one thing others have a distinct lack of. A previous career has taken its toll on my spine with damage at the
    base and sever damage at the top (neck). Surgeons will not operate as it could make my condition worse or paralyse me, so we are left managing my
    pain and lack of mobility (cannot walk more than 10m at a time).

    I'm really sorry to hear this.

    I'm disabled myself, though of course completely different circumstances and situation than you.

    As you say, exceptions. ratt is not for all packages, the test is certainly none blocking, but I hope any issues raised having the test will make for good bug reports, communication and avoid unnecessary breakage.

    It seems I have no objections then.

    --
    Salvo Tomaselli

    "Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno."
    -- Galileo Galilei

    https://ltworf.codeberg.page/
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  • From Andrey Rakhmatullin@21:1/5 to Phil Wyett on Thu Jan 23 21:00:02 2025
    On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 08:15:43PM +0000, Phil Wyett wrote:
    ratt (“Rebuild All The Things!”) operates on a Debian .changes file of a just-
    built package, identifies all reverse-build-dependencies and rebuilds them with
    the .debs from the .changes file.

    The intended use-case is, for example, to package a new snapshot of a Go library and verify that the new version does not break any other Go libraries/binaries.

    ratt need not be run against architecture 'all' packages, so for these it will
    be a 'N/A' result.

    Why?

    Your thoughts?

    It's nice to do, but it can take arbitratily long time because some
    packages have lots of revdeps.


    --
    WBR, wRAR

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  • From gregor herrmann@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 25 15:20:01 2025
    On Thu, 23 Jan 2025 09:25:12 +0100, Julien Plissonneau DuquΦne wrote:

    Le 2025-01-22 21:15, Phil Wyett a Θcritá:
    ratt need not be run against architecture 'all' packages, so for these
    it will
    be a 'N/A' result.
    Java libraries are architecture:all, and some updates are breaking builds (typical causes are that some artifact got renamed, that a deprecated API
    got finally removed, or sometimes plain old API/ABI incompatibilities). Why should they not need this?

    Same for perl arch:all packages.


    Cheers,
    gregor

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