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Debian has certainly done many things right in the past 30 years, but >treatment of new contributors is currently pretty harsh, considering
how many cracks and false turns they need to overcome on to become
regular contributors.
I would like to keep the BTS with its opportunity to pull up aAmen.
complicated bug report in my mail client WITH FULL THREADING.
On Wed, 21 May 2025 08:48:00 -0700, Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> wrote:
Debian has certainly done many things right in the past 30 years, but
treatment of new contributors is currently pretty harsh, considering
how many cracks and false turns they need to overcome on to become
regular contributors.
I would significantly reduce my enjoyment of Debian if we were to move
away from mailing lists and the BTS. Surely the BTS could be a bit
more friendly in its advanced features, but new contibutors can simply
ignore those, and a motivated person mght build a nice web interface
for those.
I would like to keep the BTS with its opportunity to pull up a
complicated bug report in my mail client WITH FULL THREADING.
I would significantly reduce my enjoyment of Debian if we were to move
away from mailing lists and the BTS. Surely the BTS could be a bit
more friendly in its advanced features, but new contibutors can simply
ignore those, and a motivated person mght build a nice web interface
for those.
I would like to keep the BTS with its opportunity to pull up a
complicated bug report in my mail client WITH FULL THREADING.
I would significantly reduce my enjoyment of Debian if we were to move
away from mailing lists and the BTS. Surely the BTS could be a bit
more friendly in its advanced features, but new contibutors can simply
ignore those, and a motivated person mght build a nice web interface
for those.
I would like to keep the BTS with its opportunity to pull up a
complicated bug report in my mail client WITH FULL THREADING.
Please don't make strawman arguments. If you read the links I provided
and the how Guix folks summarized their needs, you can see that
maintaining the e-mail capabilities was one of their main
requirements.
On Wed, 21 May 2025 22:25:36 -0700, Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> wrote:
I would significantly reduce my enjoyment of Debian if we were to move
away from mailing lists and the BTS. Surely the BTS could be a bit
more friendly in its advanced features, but new contibutors can simply
ignore those, and a motivated person mght build a nice web interface
for those.
I would like to keep the BTS with its opportunity to pull up a
complicated bug report in my mail client WITH FULL THREADING.
Please don't make strawman arguments. If you read the links I provided
and the how Guix folks summarized their needs, you can see that
maintaining the e-mail capabilities was one of their main
requirements.
I have seen Debian discuss introducing Discourse to replace the
mailing lists while claiming this "keeps the feeling of a mailing
list". That is so utterly false...
Listen. You're entitled to suggest new tools. I am entitled to say
that the tools we have are just fine. That's the way it is.
What would help is a web ui built on top of debbugs, and made available to >anyone,
possibly by adding another link next to tracker.d.o bugs link.
It requires more work than adopting an existing solution, but it >wouldn'tchangethe current workflow, and we'd just get email
notifications the same way.
What would help is a web ui built on top of debbugs, and made available to >>anyone,
possibly by adding another link next to tracker.d.o bugs link.
That noone has done this yet is a sign for me that we don't actually
need it so urgently.
Yes, the problem of not getting new contributors is by its nature not
urgent.
On Thu, May 22, 2025 at 09:53:10AM +0200, JΘrΘmy Lal wrote:
What would help is a web ui built on top of debbugs, and made available to anyone,
possibly by adding another link next to tracker.d.o bugs link.
That noone has done this yet is a sign for me that we don't actually need it so urgently. I think the distribution has more pressing things to solve.
I also like bugreport, debbugs, and current workflow, and it follows
natural to me (considering I'm both experienced with Debian ecosystem
and nearing graybeard territory). However, the initial experience is a
bit disconcerting for the newcomers, and the younger developers want a
bit snappier experience from my experience, mostly faster mail
processing.
As a side note, as I just looked to the documentation (the links at
[0]), there's no any examples of a complete mail message for
manipulating bugs in the BTS docs. Yes, the reference is there, but
seeing an example of how a complete mail message looks for
manipulating a bug report will be very helpful for the newcomers and
folks who use BTS occasionally. IOW, the man pages are missing an
"EXAMPLES" section.
[0]: https://www.debian.org/Bugs/
On Thu, May 22, 2025 at 09:53:10AM +0200, Jérémy Lal wrote:
What would help is a web ui built on top of debbugs, and made
available to
anyone,
possibly by adding another link next to tracker.d.o bugs link.
That noone has done this yet is a sign for me that we don't actually
need it so urgently. I think the distribution has more pressing things
to solve.
It requires more work than adopting an existing solution, but it
wouldn'tchangethe current workflow, and we'd just get email
notifications the same way.
Adopting an existing solution would also mean converting the current
BTS'es contents. That means hundreds of thousands of reports with
millions of messages, without losing information that cost human time to
put in.
I recently closed a bug in adduser that was filed 22 years ago.
How would we do that when we change to an "existing" solution, when our
data is in another "existing" solution?
Do you really enjoy waiting 30 min for a bug to be created to get a
bug number?
On Thu, May 22, 2025 at 11:43:56AM +0100, Ahmad Khalifa wrote:
Do you really enjoy waiting 30 min for a bug to be created to get a
bug number?
I agree there are a number of problems with debbugs, but I don't think
it's helpful to exaggerate quite so wildly. The cron job that processes incoming messages runs every three minutes, and it doesn't in practice
take long enough to end up with a backlog, so 30 minutes isn't plausible unless there's some kind of temporary outage.
I've experimentally changed it to run every minute instead, since I
couldn't think of a reason not to.
On Thu, May 22, 2025 at 12:00:05PM +0100, Colin Watson wrote:
Do you really enjoy waiting 30 min for a bug to be created to get
a bug number?
I agree there are a number of problems with debbugs, but I don't
think it's helpful to exaggerate quite so wildly. The cron job that >>processes incoming messages runs every three minutes
Was it recently changed from 10, mentioned in the previous such discussion? >But there is also greylisting.
Do you really enjoy waiting 30 min for a bug to be created to
get a bug number?
I agree there are a number of problems with debbugs, but I don't
think it's helpful to exaggerate quite so wildly. The cron job
that processes incoming messages runs every three minutes
Was it recently changed from 10, mentioned in the previous such discussion? >>But there is also greylisting.
I think maybe years ago it was 5? Not all that recent though.
Do you really enjoy waiting 30 min for a bug to be created to get a
bug number?
I agree there are a number of problems with debbugs, but I don't think
it's helpful to exaggerate quite so wildly. The cron job that
processes incoming messages runs every three minutes
Migrating bug data to bugzilla is pretty straightforward.
That noone has done this yet is a sign for me that we don't actually
need it so urgently. I think the distribution has more pressing things
to solve.
Right, it was found to be 15, not 10, in >https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2024/12/msg00210.html, though I
guess the actually used one has deviated from the source?
On Thu May 22, 2025 at 11:43 AM BST, Ahmad Khalifa wrote:
Migrating bug data to bugzilla is pretty straightforward.
Is Bugzilla actively maintained? Red Hat have abandoned it. Are Mozilla
still committed to it?
Please don't make strawman arguments. If you read the links I provided
and the how Guix folks summarized their needs, you can see that
maintaining the e-mail capabilities was one of their main
requirements.
I have seen Debian discuss introducing Discourse to replace the
mailing lists while claiming this "keeps the feeling of a mailing
list". That is so utterly false...
Please stop making more strawmen arguments - why do you mention
Discourse here and nothing about MUMI or the other things in my actual >e-mail?
It's alive, not sure if sponsored by Red Hat/Mozilla, but both use it
(and Kernel, KDE, the list goes on).
On Thu May 22, 2025 at 4:56 PM BST, Ahmad Khalifa wrote:
It's alive, not sure if sponsored by Red Hat/Mozilla, but both use it
(and Kernel, KDE, the list goes on).
Red Hat have transitioned almost entirely to JIRA.
On Thu May 22, 2025 at 4:56 PM BST, Ahmad Khalifa wrote:
It's alive, not sure if sponsored by Red Hat/Mozilla, but both use it
(and Kernel, KDE, the list goes on).
Red Hat have transitioned almost entirely to JIRA.
(Source: I work for Red Hat)
Thankfully that's not an option for us (not dfsg free).
On Fri, 23 May 2025 08:57:36 +0100, "Jonathan Dowland"
<jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
On Thu May 22, 2025 at 4:56 PM BST, Ahmad Khalifa wrote:
It's alive, not sure if sponsored by Red Hat/Mozilla, but both use it
(and Kernel, KDE, the list goes on).
Red Hat have transitioned almost entirely to JIRA.
Thankfully that's not an option for us (not dfsg free).
But it could be an option. If Atlassian offered the Debian project free >(gratis) use of their platform (especially if they handle the >administration), why wouldn't we accept?
On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 10:59:47AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
On Fri, 23 May 2025 08:57:36 +0100, "Jonathan Dowland"But it could be an option. If Atlassian offered the Debian project free >(gratis) use of their platform (especially if they handle the >administration), why wouldn't we accept?
<jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
Red Hat have transitioned almost entirely to JIRA.
Thankfully that's not an option for us (not dfsg free).
On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 10:00:22AM -0400, Roberto C. Sßnchez wrote:
But it could be an option. If Atlassian offered the Debian project free (gratis) use of their platform (especially if they handle the administration), why wouldn't we accept?
Have you had to use Jira? My last job switched to it for a lot of things a couple of years before I left. Let's just say that I am extremely unenthusiastic about having to use it for hobby work as well.
On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 10:59:47AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
On Fri, 23 May 2025 08:57:36 +0100, "Jonathan Dowland"
<jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
But it could be an option. If Atlassian offered the Debian projectRed Hat have transitioned almost entirely to JIRA.
Thankfully that's not an option for us (not dfsg free).
free (gratis) use of their platform (especially if they handle the administration), why wouldn't we accept?
On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 10:59:47AM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
On Fri, 23 May 2025 08:57:36 +0100, "Jonathan Dowland"
<jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
On Thu May 22, 2025 at 4:56 PM BST, Ahmad Khalifa wrote:
It's alive, not sure if sponsored by Red Hat/Mozilla, but both use it
(and Kernel, KDE, the list goes on).
Red Hat have transitioned almost entirely to JIRA.
Thankfully that's not an option for us (not dfsg free).
But it could be an option. If Atlassian offered the Debian project free (gratis) use of their platform (especially if they handle the administration), why wouldn't we accept?
Regards,
-Roberto
--
Roberto C. Sánchez
Hi!
I came across this post https://issues.guix.gnu.org/76503 in Guix
where they discuss how to improve the contributor experience, and in particular what technical changes they are doing.
Guix is interesting as they use a clone of Debbugs as their bug
tracker at https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=guix.
Hello,
if I wanted to rethink the bug tracking
i would seriously consider storing the bug in git
maybe with something like this i just discovered https://github.com/git-bug/git-bug/tree/master
The big advantage is to unlock the tracking from any forge
and there is some kind of logic to attach bug to branch (i don't know if
they do this)
But there seems to have at least Bridges with GitHub and GitLab
Le Wed, May 21, 2025 at 08:48:00AM -0700, Otto Kekäläinen a écrit :
Hi!
I came across this post https://issues.guix.gnu.org/76503 in Guix
where they discuss how to improve the contributor experience, and in
particular what technical changes they are doing.
Guix is interesting as they use a clone of Debbugs as their bug
tracker at https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=guix.
Yes, but there is issue was not with Debbugs as a bug tracking system,
but Debbugs as a merge-request tracker, something that Debbugs was never intended to be, and is available in Salsa already.
It would be really nice if there was an easy way to link a bug report to a MR on salsa
you can try
forwaded NNNNNN https://salsa.debian.org/debian-team/package-name/-/merge_requests/MMM
but eg gmail will break the long line before the url (we can all say how
bad gmail is, but that doesnt solve anything)
It would be really nice if there was an easy way to link a bug report to a MR on salsa
you can try
forwaded NNNNNN https://salsa.debian.org/debian-team/package-name/-/merge_requests/MMM
but eg gmail will break the long line before the url (we can all say how
bad gmail is, but that doesnt solve anything)
but eg gmail will break the long line before the url (we can all say how
bad gmail is, but that doesnt solve anything)
It would be really nice if there was an easy way to link a bug report to a MR on salsa
you can try
forwaded NNNNNN https://salsa.debian.org/debian-team/package-name/-/merge_requests/MMM
but eg gmail will break the long line before the url (we can all say how
bad gmail is, but that doesnt solve anything)
It would be really nice if there was an easy way to link a bug report to a MR on salsa
you can try
forwaded NNNNNN https://salsa.debian.org/debian-team/package-name/-/merge_requests/MMM
but eg gmail will break the long line before the url (we can all say how >>bad gmail is, but that doesnt solve anything)
You can use the bts(1) command for that sort of thing.
On Sun, May 25, 2025 at 10:56:14AM +0100, Richard Lewis wrote:
It would be really nice if there was an easy way to link a bug report to a MR on salsa
you can try
forwaded NNNNNN https://salsa.debian.org/debian-team/package-name/-/merge_requests/MMM
but eg gmail will break the long line before the url (we can all say how
bad gmail is, but that doesnt solve anything)
indeed, because gmail is not free software, you should really be using something
else. talking won't help.
also i'm not convinced we should break our working workflows, because some non-free
software cannot do email.
(note that it requires /usr/sbin/sendmail by default, though there seem to
be options to use SMTP)
i believe i read (sorry again: i used an android phone and accessed a
website that wasnt released as free software to find this information)
that gmail breaks lines because some RFC recommends lines should be less
than some length, and other free software rejcets long lines (doesnt
debian's default exim config do this as well?)
someone could, for example, make the bts support \ to continue a line,
that would benefit everyone without breaking anything?
On Sun, 25 May 2025 17:34:58 +0500, Andrey Rakhmatullin
<wrar@debian.org> wrote:
(note that it requires /usr/sbin/sendmail by default, though there seem to >>be options to use SMTP)
The /usr/lib/sendmail interface is dying anyway, it doesn't play well
with systemd, and it doesn't play at all with systemd units that use security.