XPost: linux.debian.maint.i18n

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Hello Marc,
Am Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 09:44:47AM +0100 schrieb Marc Haber:

tl;dr: New Wiki Page https://wiki.debian.org/I18n/ForPackageMaintainers, please review

I just did it. I usually updated it right away, but at one or two
points it is more like a discussion. And due to my changes some
redundancy is included, but I think this is more helpful during
development, you can streamline it of course in the next step(s).

If you have any questions on my changes it is probably best to discuss
this on list. Please keep me (or -i18n) in CC, as I'm not subscribed
to -devel.

Thanks.

Greetings

Helge
--
Dr. Helge Kreutzmann debian@helgefjell.de
Dipl.-Phys. http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
64bit GNU powered gpg signed mail preferred
Help keep free software "libre": http://www.ffii.de/

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XPost: linux.debian.maint.i18n

On Sat, Mar 22, 2025 at 06:32:54PM +0000, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:

Am Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 09:44:47AM +0100 schrieb Marc Haber:

tl;dr: New Wiki Page https://wiki.debian.org/I18n/ForPackageMaintainers,
please review

I just did it. I usually updated it right away, but at one or two
points it is more like a discussion. And due to my changes some
redundancy is included, but I think this is more helpful during
development, you can streamline it of course in the next step(s).

I appreciate your help. Thank you very much.

If you have any questions on my changes it is probably best to discuss
this on list. Please keep me (or -i18n) in CC, as I'm not subscribed
to -devel.

I think the only matter that needs discussion is whether and when to
commit updated PO files:

Me:
It is currently not clear how to make sure that a package maintainer
does not forget these updates without creating lots of useless commits
with new PO files that only differ in line number and date stamp
comments.

You:
Using no line numbers reduced this problem. Updated time stamps are no
worry for translators (they seldomly look at them). And they do not care
for commits - they look at master or similar or on the web pages
mentioned above and take what they find. So the most important part is
to keep this current. If you need this for your VCS, you can add code in
your build system to discard po(t) file updates which only change in the
date stamp.

My questions:
"Using no line numbers" => invoke msgmerge with --no-location?
"Web pages mentioned above" => I don't see web pages being mentioned.
That needs a name or a link
"Add code in your build system to discard po(t) that only change in the
date stamp" => that would mak ethe source package and the tag in the VCS diverge. I don't like that at all.

Greetings
Marc


-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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XPost: linux.debian.maint.i18n

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Hello Marc,
Am Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 05:49:40PM +0100 schrieb Marc Haber:

On Sat, Mar 22, 2025 at 06:32:54PM +0000, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:

Am Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 09:44:47AM +0100 schrieb Marc Haber:
If you have any questions on my changes it is probably best to discuss
this on list. Please keep me (or -i18n) in CC, as I'm not subscribed
to -devel.

I think the only matter that needs discussion is whether and when to commit updated PO files:

Me:
It is currently not clear how to make sure that a package maintainer does
not forget these updates without creating lots of useless commits with new
PO files that only differ in line number and date stamp comments.

You:
Using no line numbers reduced this problem. Updated time stamps are no worry for translators (they seldomly look at them). And they do not care for commits - they look at master or similar or on the web pages mentioned above and take what they find. So the most important part is to keep this current. If you need this for your VCS, you can add code in your build system to discard po(t) file updates which only change in the date stamp.

My questions:
"Using no line numbers" => invoke msgmerge with --no-location?

Yes.

"Web pages mentioned above" => I don't see web pages being mentioned. That needs a name or a link

I meant the references to the Debian status pages, the link I inserted
further above: https://www.debian.org/international/l10n/

Please reword this to make it more clear.

"Add code in your build system to discard po(t) that only change in the date stamp" => that would mak ethe source package and the tag in the VCS diverge. I don't like that at all.

This I don't understand.

At some stage you update the POT files. Then you run a (git) commit,
to place the updated files in your repository.

In manpages-l10n Tobias added code to detect, if only the time stamp
changed. If so, the time stamp is reverted to the previous value, and
a "git commit" is a noop. Then also the po files are left alone.

This "only" saves you a commit in this corner case.

It is not meant to diverge version, because in the end the po(t) files
in your package should match the po(t) files in the repository.

Greetings

Helge

--
Dr. Helge Kreutzmann debian@helgefjell.de
Dipl.-Phys. http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
64bit GNU powered gpg signed mail preferred
Help keep free software "libre": http://www.ffii.de/

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XPost: linux.debian.maint.i18n

On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 06:33:19PM +0000, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:

Am Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 05:49:40PM +0100 schrieb Marc Haber:

"Using no line numbers" => invoke msgmerge with --no-location?

Yes.

"Web pages mentioned above" => I don't see web pages being mentioned. That >> needs a name or a link

I meant the references to the Debian status pages, the link I inserted >further above: https://www.debian.org/international/l10n/

Please reword this to make it more clear.

Done.

"Add code in your build system to discard po(t) that only change in the date >> stamp" => that would mak ethe source package and the tag in the VCS diverge. >> I don't like that at all.

This I don't understand.

At some stage you update the POT files. Then you run a (git) commit,
to place the updated files in your repository.

Yes, this should be a manual process, in my opinion.

In manpages-l10n Tobias added code to detect, if only the time stamp
changed. If so, the time stamp is reverted to the previous value, and
a "git commit" is a noop. Then also the po files are left alone.

That should be a feature of xgettext or the other tools that might write
the POT files: Don't regenerate the file if the only change is the time
stamp. Since xgettext is unlikely to change¹

This "only" saves you a commit in this corner case.

It is not meant to diverge version, because in the end the po(t) files
in your package should match the po(t) files in the repository.

The problem ist when POT and PO files are regenerated (and actually
change) in package build when you're doing an out-of-tree build.

For example, I have export-dir=../build-area set in my gbp.conf. When
building a package, gbp copies the current working copy (or exports the requested branch) to a temporary directory under ../build-area/ and does
the actual build from there. The temporary build directory is then
discarded, leaving the current working copy unchanged. When the build
process regenerates POT and PO files, those changes never find their way
back into your working copy, making the source package and the VCS
diverge.

That's why I believe that any point in the package build is the wrong
place to regenerate PO and POT files. Either that, or we need to
strongly discourage doing out-of-tree builds.

Greetings
Marc

¹ I tried to put some of the ideas that this discussion brought into
xgettext / msgmerge bugs and they got rejected upstream quite quickly. I
will refrain from wasting my time in this regard in the future.


-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)