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VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it is
the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself, and
it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it is
the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself, and
it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it is
the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself, and
it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it is
the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself, and
it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
On 2024-10-20 14:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it
is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself,
and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
Here's the FIA basically admitting that they got it wrong:
'Formula 1’s governing body is to revise its racing guidelines following
a meeting with drivers at the Mexico City Grand Prix.
The move comes after drivers questioned the decision to penalise
McLaren’s Lando Norris following a controversial incident with Red
Bull’s Max Verstappen in last Sunday’s United States Grand Prix.
The FIA said in the drivers’ briefing in Mexico on Friday, sources in
the meeting have told BBC Sport, that it would come up with revised
wording to cover the specifics of the incident and present it to the
drivers for approval later this season.
The FIA did not give details as to what would change, but the admission
came in the context of a discussion about the tactics Verstappen had
employed to keep his position and whether he should have been penalised.'
<https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/articles/cn5wwzl052go>
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it
is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself,
and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND leave
space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it
is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself,
and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-a-
slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it
is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself,
and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND leave
space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-a-slam-dunk/
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all
it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-
a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
On 10/22/2024 1:41 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all >>>>>>> it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others. >>>>>> Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time. >>>>>> The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-
was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all
it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others. >>>>> Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time. >>>>> The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-
a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
On 10/22/2024 4:13 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2024-10-22 12:18, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 1:41 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after >>>>>>>>> all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then
others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big >>>>>>>> time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND >>>>>>>> leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd. >>>>>>>>
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept >>>>>>>> position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty- >>>>>>> was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing off
the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on the
track...
...which is exactly what happened?
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the
track in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off
the track on the STRAIGHT?
From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions that
force another driver off the track.
Now model outcomes and Stewards' probable responses.
IYKYK.
On 2024-10-22 12:18, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 1:41 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after
all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others. >>>>>>> Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big
time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND >>>>>>> leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept >>>>>>> position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-
was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing off
the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on the track...
...which is exactly what happened?
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the track
in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off the track
on the STRAIGHT?
From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions that
force another driver off the track.
On 2024-10-22 13:24, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 4:13 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2024-10-22 12:18, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 1:41 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after >>>>>>>>>> all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track >>>>>>>>>> himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then >>>>>>>>> others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big >>>>>>>>> time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner >>>>>>>>> AND leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd. >>>>>>>>>
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and
kept position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty- >>>>>>>> was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get
back ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing
off the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on
the track...
...which is exactly what happened?
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the
track in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off
the track on the STRAIGHT?
From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions that
force another driver off the track.
Now model outcomes and Stewards' probable responses.
IYKYK.
OIK...BYD
'2. Guidelines for overtaking on the outside of a corner:
...
The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while
remaining within the limits of the track.”'
<https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_- _fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf>
Read that as many times as it takes.
On 23/10/2024 9:30 am, Alan wrote:Absolutely it should.
On 2024-10-22 13:24, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 4:13 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2024-10-22 12:18, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 1:41 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after >>>>>>>>>>> all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track >>>>>>>>>>> himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then >>>>>>>>>> others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck >>>>>>>>>> big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner >>>>>>>>>> AND leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is >>>>>>>>>> absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and >>>>>>>>>> kept position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-
penalty- was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get
back ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing
off the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on
the track...
...which is exactly what happened?
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the
track in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off
the track on the STRAIGHT?
From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions
that force another driver off the track.
Now model outcomes and Stewards' probable responses.
IYKYK.
OIK...BYD
'2. Guidelines for overtaking on the outside of a corner:
...
The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while
remaining within the limits of the track.”'
<https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-
_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf>
Read that as many times as it takes.
And that should work for the first corner in the race as well.
On 2024-10-22 12:18, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 1:41 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after
all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others. >>>>>>> Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big
time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND >>>>>>> leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept >>>>>>> position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-
was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing off
the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on the track...
...which is exactly what happened?
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the track
in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off the track
on the STRAIGHT?
From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions that
force another driver off the track.
On 2024-10-22 13:24, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 4:13 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2024-10-22 12:18, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 1:41 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after >>>>>>>>>> all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track >>>>>>>>>> himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then >>>>>>>>> others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big >>>>>>>>> time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner >>>>>>>>> AND leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd. >>>>>>>>>
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and
kept position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty- >>>>>>>> was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get
back ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing
off the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on
the track...
...which is exactly what happened?
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the
track in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off
the track on the STRAIGHT?
From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions that
force another driver off the track.
Now model outcomes and Stewards' probable responses.
IYKYK.
OIK...BYD
'2. Guidelines for overtaking on the outside of a corner:
...
The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while
remaining within the limits of the track.”'
<https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_- _fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf>
Read that as many times as it takes.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all >>>>>>> it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others. >>>>>> Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time. >>>>>> The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was- >>>>> a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
There have been a number of articles about this (understandably) which
all seem to add up to "What Verstappen did is almost certainly legal -
even if it's in a grey area - but should it be?".
I can't find the really good, deep discussion on this, but Brundle's
hints at this:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13238684/martin-brundle-on-united-states-gp-lando-norris-battle-with-max-verstappen-and-subsequent-penalty-analysed#:~:text=And%20so%20started%20a%20string,and%20a%20pass%20seemed%20inevitable.
From memory, the more involved discussion was related to the fact that Verstappen was treated as the defending driver for the purposes of the
rules, but that it's not clear that he wasn't (in principle) passed on
the straight, and that he shouldn't have been treated as the attacking
driver for the purposes of the corner passing regulations.
If that were to be the case, the obligations on him are different. The dive-bombing tactic wouldn't be a legitimate defence of the racing line,
and the forcing of Norris off-track while *not* actually staying
on-track himself wouldn't be treated the same. If he'd had to make the
corner and leave space, he'd have to have braked sooner, and he'd have
had to cede the lead was lost.
...BUT all of this has to be considered, processed and a decision taken
in next to no time. I think that what the stewards decided under the circumstances and given the understanding of the rules was correct. In
the cold light of day, however, does there need to be a clarification -
to the drivers, the stewards or even a specific change in rules - to
remove some of the grey area?
It just doesn't "feel right" that a driver can engineer a situation
where their failure to slow in time for the corner gets to benefit from forcing another driver off-track without making the turn legitimately themselves. If Verstappen had forced Norris wide while making the corner on-track I *still* think it needs a review - there is the question of
whether he needed to leave space - but not making the corner just looks
like abuse of the rules and something that needs addressing.
On 2024-10-23 02:39, Mark wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all >>>>>>>> it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others. >>>>>>> Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big
time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND >>>>>>> leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept >>>>>>> position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was- >>>>>> a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
There have been a number of articles about this (understandably) which
all seem to add up to "What Verstappen did is almost certainly legal -
even if it's in a grey area - but should it be?".
I can't find the really good, deep discussion on this, but Brundle's
hints at this:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13238684/martin-brundle-on-
united-states-gp-lando-norris-battle-with-max-verstappen-and-
subsequent-penalty-
analysed#:~:text=And%20so%20started%20a%20string,and%20a%20pass%20seemed%20inevitable.
From memory, the more involved discussion was related to the fact that
Verstappen was treated as the defending driver for the purposes of the
rules, but that it's not clear that he wasn't (in principle) passed on
the straight, and that he shouldn't have been treated as the attacking
driver for the purposes of the corner passing regulations.
If that were to be the case, the obligations on him are different. The
dive-bombing tactic wouldn't be a legitimate defence of the racing line,
and the forcing of Norris off-track while *not* actually staying
on-track himself wouldn't be treated the same. If he'd had to make the
corner and leave space, he'd have to have braked sooner, and he'd have
had to cede the lead was lost.
...BUT all of this has to be considered, processed and a decision taken
in next to no time. I think that what the stewards decided under the
circumstances and given the understanding of the rules was correct. In
the cold light of day, however, does there need to be a clarification -
to the drivers, the stewards or even a specific change in rules - to
remove some of the grey area?
It just doesn't "feel right" that a driver can engineer a situation
where their failure to slow in time for the corner gets to benefit from
forcing another driver off-track without making the turn legitimately
themselves. If Verstappen had forced Norris wide while making the corner
on-track I *still* think it needs a review - there is the question of
whether he needed to leave space - but not making the corner just looks
like abuse of the rules and something that needs addressing.
I agree that even if Verstappen had stayed on the track, it should be
against the rules to force another driver off track once he has gained position and you have room and time to choose a line that leaves him room.
The funny thing is that those same guidelines I posted pretty much make
this clear for passing on the inside:
'1. Guidelines for overtaking on the inside of a corner:
“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient
room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a
significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.
When considering what is a ‘significant portion’ for an overtaking on
the inside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at
by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will
consider if the overtaking car’s front tires are alongside the other car
by no later than the apex of the corner.”'
<https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_- _fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf>
So why should a different standard apply to an outside pass?
Norris's front tires were not only "alongside" at a point satisfying "no later than the apex", he was actually ahead.
For me, this always comes back to leaving the other car room and time.
You can't barge down the inside too late, because that leaves the car
you're overtaking no time to change its line to stay on the track.
You shouldn't be able to take away a position gained on the outside by letting off your own braking and leaving the overtaking car no room to
stay on the track.
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:> ...BUT all of this has to be considered, processed and a decision taken
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all >>>>>>> it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others. >>>>>> Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time. >>>>>> The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was- >>>>> a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
There have been a number of articles about this (understandably) which
all seem to add up to "What Verstappen did is almost certainly legal -
even if it's in a grey area - but should it be?".
I can't find the really good, deep discussion on this, but Brundle's
hints at this:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13238684/martin-brundle-on-united-states-gp-lando-norris-battle-with-max-verstappen-and-subsequent-penalty-analysed#:~:text=And%20so%20started%20a%20string,and%20a%20pass%20seemed%20inevitable.
From memory, the more involved discussion was related to the fact that Verstappen was treated as the defending driver for the purposes of the
rules, but that it's not clear that he wasn't (in principle) passed on
the straight, and that he shouldn't have been treated as the attacking
driver for the purposes of the corner passing regulations.
If that were to be the case, the obligations on him are different. The dive-bombing tactic wouldn't be a legitimate defence of the racing line,
and the forcing of Norris off-track while *not* actually staying
on-track himself wouldn't be treated the same. If he'd had to make the
corner and leave space, he'd have to have braked sooner, and he'd have
had to cede the lead was lost.
in next to no time. I think that what the stewards decided under the circumstances and given the understanding of the rules was correct. In
the cold light of day, however, does there need to be a clarification -
to the drivers, the stewards or even a specific change in rules - to
remove some of the grey area?
It just doesn't "feel right" that a driver can engineer a situation
where their failure to slow in time for the corner gets to benefit from forcing another driver off-track without making the turn legitimately themselves. If Verstappen had forced Norris wide while making the corner on-track I *still* think it needs a review - there is the question of
whether he needed to leave space - but not making the corner just looks
like abuse of the rules and something that needs addressing.
On 23/10/2024 10:39 pm, Mark wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2024-10-22 09:13, News wrote:
On 10/22/2024 12:01 PM, Edmund wrote:
On 22-10-2024 16:37, News wrote:
On 10/21/2024 3:19 AM, Edmund wrote:
On 20-10-2024 23:26, Geoff wrote:
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all >>>>>>>> it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others. >>>>>>> Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big
time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND >>>>>>> leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept >>>>>>> position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was- >>>>>> a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
There have been a number of articles about this (understandably) which
all seem to add up to "What Verstappen did is almost certainly legal -
even if it's in a grey area - but should it be?".
I can't find the really good, deep discussion on this, but Brundle's
hints at this:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13238684/martin-brundle-on-
united-states-gp-lando-norris-battle-with-max-verstappen-and-
subsequent-penalty-
analysed#:~:text=And%20so%20started%20a%20string,and%20a%20pass%20seemed%20inevitable.
From memory, the more involved discussion was related to the fact that
Verstappen was treated as the defending driver for the purposes of the
rules, but that it's not clear that he wasn't (in principle) passed on
the straight, and that he shouldn't have been treated as the attacking
driver for the purposes of the corner passing regulations.
If that were to be the case, the obligations on him are different. The
dive-bombing tactic wouldn't be a legitimate defence of the racing line,
and the forcing of Norris off-track while *not* actually staying
on-track himself wouldn't be treated the same. If he'd had to make the
corner and leave space, he'd have to have braked sooner, and he'd have
had to cede the lead was lost.
; ...BUT all of this has to be considered, processed and a decision taken
in next to no time. I think that what the stewards decided under the
circumstances and given the understanding of the rules was correct. In
the cold light of day, however, does there need to be a clarification -
to the drivers, the stewards or even a specific change in rules - to
remove some of the grey area?
It just doesn't "feel right" that a driver can engineer a situation
where their failure to slow in time for the corner gets to benefit from
forcing another driver off-track without making the turn legitimately
themselves. If Verstappen had forced Norris wide while making the corner
on-track I *still* think it needs a review - there is the question of
whether he needed to leave space - but not making the corner just looks
like abuse of the rules and something that needs addressing.
And even if not leaving the track himself, in dive-bombing the corner in
a manner that it is inevitable that an adjacent driver is forced off the track.