On 9/18/2024 9:27 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

On 9/18/2024 9:21 AM, Tom Wade wrote:

On 2024-09-18 00:25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

But it’s not ISO 8601.

Very true, but better than the AM/PM stuff, and unambiguous (unlike
mm/ dd/yy or dd/mm/yy).

yyyy-mm-dd has better characteristics (sorting), but dd-mmm-yyy tend to

yyyy

be more readable.

Arne

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On 9/18/2024 9:21 AM, Tom Wade wrote:

On 2024-09-18 00:25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

But it’s not ISO 8601.

Very true, but better than the AM/PM stuff, and unambiguous (unlike mm/
dd/yy or dd/mm/yy).

yyyy-mm-dd has better characteristics (sorting), but dd-mmm-yyy tend to
be more readable.

I'm a great believer in ISO 8601 ever since we had a software license
expire on February 2nd when we were expecting it to last till March 3rd!

February 3rd and March 2nd??

Arne

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On 2024-09-18 00:25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

But it’s not ISO 8601.

Very true, but better than the AM/PM stuff, and unambiguous (unlike
mm/dd/yy or dd/mm/yy). I have in my SYSTARTUP_VMS:

$! Set up date/time format.
$!
$ @SYS$STARTUP:LIB$DT_STARTUP
$
$ ! Display date & time is ISO 8601
$
$ Define /system LIB$DT_FORMAT -
LIB$DATE_FORMAT_037,LIB$TIME_FORMAT_001

-----

$ dir/date sys$Login:login.com;0

Directory US$:[TWADE]

LOGIN.COM;59 2023-08-26 13:39:38.31

Total of 1 file.
$

I'm a great believer in ISO 8601 ever since we had a software license
expire on February 2nd when we were expecting it to last till March 3rd!



--
Tom Wade
tom dot wade at tomwade dot eu

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On 2024-09-24, Arne Vajh°j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

On 9/19/2024 8:22 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:

On 2024-09-18, Tom Wade <nospam@void.blackhole.mx> wrote:

On 2024-09-18 00:25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

But it?s not ISO 8601.

Very true, but better than the AM/PM stuff, and unambiguous (unlike
mm/dd/yy or dd/mm/yy).

VMS date/time formats are much more readable, but the main problem with
VMS timekeeping is that it doesn't have a local timezone offset from a base >> GMT/UTC timepoint built into it.

What is SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL then?

A joke. At least when compared to Unix.

In Unix, all timestamps are based on GMT/UTC and the user's timezone is
just an attribute of the user's process, which is the system timezone by default but can be changed by the user. Different processes can have
different timezones and none of this affects what timestamp is actually
written to the filesystem when the file changes.

VMS commands have no support for showing the active timezone.
Compare the output of the Linux date command with $ SHOW TIME.

Compare the output of the Linux "ls --full" command with $ DIR/FULL.
Note out the Linux command shows the timezone, and note how the timezone changes for each file depending on whether DST was active or not when the
file was last modified.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

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On 9/25/2024 8:19 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:

On 2024-09-24, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

On 9/19/2024 8:22 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:

On 2024-09-18, Tom Wade <nospam@void.blackhole.mx> wrote:

On 2024-09-18 00:25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

But it?s not ISO 8601.

Very true, but better than the AM/PM stuff, and unambiguous (unlike
mm/dd/yy or dd/mm/yy).

VMS date/time formats are much more readable, but the main problem with
VMS timekeeping is that it doesn't have a local timezone offset from a base >>> GMT/UTC timepoint built into it.

What is SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL then?

A joke. At least when compared to Unix.

It exist. Joke or not.

VMS commands have no support for showing the active timezone.
Compare the output of the Linux date command with $ SHOW TIME.

$ SHOW TIME

does not display it.

But:

$ @sys$manager:utc$time_setup show

does.

In Unix, all timestamps are based on GMT/UTC and the user's timezone is
just an attribute of the user's process, which is the system timezone by default but can be changed by the user. Different processes can have different timezones and none of this affects what timestamp is actually written to the filesystem when the file changes.

Compare the output of the Linux "ls --full" command with $ DIR/FULL.
Note out the Linux command shows the timezone, and note how the timezone changes for each file depending on whether DST was active or not when the file was last modified.

All the stuff that existed before VMS 6.x (which obviously include DCL
the file stuff) is not time zone aware.

I am sure Hoff would say a few things about the curse of backwards compatibility here.

But you can make your applications use UTC and timezone since VMS 6.x.

Arne

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On 2024-09-18, Tom Wade <nospam@void.blackhole.mx> wrote:

On 2024-09-18 00:25, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

But it?s not ISO 8601.

Very true, but better than the AM/PM stuff, and unambiguous (unlike
mm/dd/yy or dd/mm/yy).

VMS date/time formats are much more readable, but the main problem with
VMS timekeeping is that it doesn't have a local timezone offset from a base GMT/UTC timepoint built into it.

Unix got this right and VMS did not.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

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On 2024-09-18 14:27, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

I'm a great believer in ISO 8601 ever since we had a software license
expire on February 2nd when we were expecting it to last till March 3rd!

February 3rd and March 2nd??

Correct of course.

--
Tom Wade
tom dot wade at tomwade dot eu

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On 2024-09-25 00:58:18 +0000, Arne Vajh°j said:

On 9/19/2024 8:22 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:

VMS date/time formats are much more readable, but the main problem with
VMS timekeeping is that it doesn't have a local timezone offset from a
base GMT/UTC timepoint built into it.

What is SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL then?

A nice rug atop a pile of poo.

Unix got this right and VMS did not.

VMS did not get it right in 1978 - VMS got it almost right in 1993.

Having been in the related debates, compatibility blocked the fix.

Having most timestamps implicitly shift by -12 to +14 hours (IIRC) was
viewed as intractable for compatibility.

So we got a nice rug. Which still has issues.


--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC

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On 9/6/2024 2:54 PM, William Cox wrote:

I have't seen any mention here about the VMS Software Bootcamp coming up
next month in Boston. It is a 3-day event 23-25 October.

Details, including costs, can be found on the VMS Software main website.

https://vmssoftware.com/

They have now published the agenda:

https://events.vmssoftware.com/bootcamp-2024/agenda

Arne

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On 2024-09-13, Arne Vajh°j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

On 9/6/2024 2:54 PM, William Cox wrote:

I have't seen any mention here about the VMS Software Bootcamp coming up
next month in Boston. It is a 3-day event 23-25 October.

Details, including costs, can be found on the VMS Software main website.

https://vmssoftware.com/

They have now published the agenda:

https://events.vmssoftware.com/bootcamp-2024/agenda

"Structured DCL Scripting". Hmmm... :-)

BTW, it's 12pm, not 12am (unless you really are having a 13-hour
lunch break). :-)

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

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On 9/13/2024 1:56 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:

On 2024-09-13, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

On 9/6/2024 2:54 PM, William Cox wrote:

I have't seen any mention here about the VMS Software Bootcamp coming up >>> next month in Boston. It is a 3-day event 23-25 October.

Details, including costs, can be found on the VMS Software main website. >>>
https://vmssoftware.com/

They have now published the agenda:

https://events.vmssoftware.com/bootcamp-2024/agenda

"Structured DCL Scripting". Hmmm... :-)

BTW, it's 12pm, not 12am (unless you really are having a 13-hour
lunch break). :-)

I think it should actually be 12m


https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/noon-12-am-or-12-pm

What does am and pm mean?

The 12-hour clock divides the 24-hour day into two periods.

am stands for the Latin ante meridiem, translating to "before midday". This is the time before noon.
pm stands for post meridiem or "after midday" – the time after noon.

Noon is therefore neither 'ante' (am) nor 'post' (pm) meridiem. Midnight is also neither am nor pm.


--
-- Rob

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On 13/09/2024 19:09, Robert A. Brooks wrote:

On 9/13/2024 1:56 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:

On 2024-09-13, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

On 9/6/2024 2:54 PM, William Cox wrote:

I have't seen any mention here about the VMS Software Bootcamp
coming up
next month in Boston. It is a 3-day event 23-25 October.

Details, including costs, can be found on the VMS Software main
website.

https://vmssoftware.com/

They have now published the agenda:

https://events.vmssoftware.com/bootcamp-2024/agenda

"Structured DCL Scripting". Hmmm... :-)

BTW, it's 12pm, not 12am (unless you really are having a 13-hour
lunch break). :-)

I think it should actually be 12m

https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/noon-12-am-or-12-pm

What does am and pm mean?

The 12-hour clock divides the 24-hour day into two periods.

    am stands for the Latin ante meridiem, translating to "before midday". This is the time before noon.
    pm stands for post meridiem or "after midday" – the time after noon.

Noon is therefore neither 'ante' (am) nor 'post' (pm) meridiem. Midnight
is also neither am nor pm.

The tradition is either to use noon or midnight, or use a 24 hour clock!

--
Chris

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On 9/13/2024 1:56 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:

On 2024-09-13, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

They have now published the agenda:

https://events.vmssoftware.com/bootcamp-2024/agenda

"Structured DCL Scripting". Hmmm... :-)

One does what one can do with the tools available.

DCL is not Python or VBS.

But one can do some things:
* split logic up in subroutines
* have a convention for how to do loops using goto
* have a convention for how to simulate arrays
* indentation
* self explanatory names
* comments
* etc.

Example (whether it is a good or bad example that I will leave
to the reader):

$! p1 = file name
$ file_name = p1
$ call read_file 'file_name' "nline" "line"
$ call dump "Before sort:" 'nline' "line"
$ call o2sort 'nline' "line"
$ call dump "After sort:" 'nline' "line"
$ exit
$!
$ read_file: subroutine ! p1 = file name, p2 = name of global variable
holding number of lines, p3 = name of global variable holding
lines
$ file_name = p1
$ nline = p2
$ line = p3
$ open/read inputfile 'file_name'
$ n = 0
$ file_read_loop:
$ read/end=end_file_read_loop inputfile temp
$ 'line'_'n' == temp
$ n = n + 1
$ goto file_read_loop
$ end_file_read_loop:
$ 'nline' == n
$ close inputfile
$ return
$ endsubroutine
$!
$ dump: subroutine ! p1 = description, p2 = number lines, p3 = name of
global variable holding lines
$ description = p1
$ nline = p2
$ line = p3
$ write sys$output description
$ i = 0
$ dump_loop:
$ if i .ge. nline then goto end_dump_loop
$ write sys$output 'line'_'i'
$ i = i + 1
$ goto dump_loop
$ end_dump_loop:
$ return
$ endsubroutine
$!
$ o2sort: subroutine ! p1 = number lines, p2 = name of global variable
holding lines
$ nline = p1
$ line = p2
$ i = 0
$ sort_outer_loop:
$ if i .ge. nline then goto end_sort_outer_loop
$ j = i + 1
$ sort_inner_loop:
$ if j .ge. nline then goto end_sort_inner_loop
$ if 'line'_'i' .gts. 'line'_'j'
$ then
$ temp = 'line'_'i'
$ 'line'_'i' == 'line'_'j'
$ 'line'_'j' == temp
$ endif
$ j = j + 1
$ goto sort_inner_loop
$ end_sort_inner_loop:
$ i = i + 1
$ goto sort_outer_loop
$ end_sort_outer_loop:
$ return
$ endsubroutine

Arne

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On 9/13/2024 12:18 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

On 9/6/2024 2:54 PM, William Cox wrote:

I have't seen any mention here about the VMS Software Bootcamp coming up
next month in Boston. It is a 3-day event 23-25 October.

Details, including costs, can be found on the VMS Software main website.

https://vmssoftware.com/

They have now published the agenda:

https://events.vmssoftware.com/bootcamp-2024/agenda

And they just published the sponsors.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/vms-software-inc-_were-excited-to-introduce-our-incredible-activity-7245462232136896514-P5Z0/

Oracle
SCI
JCC
Pia-Sofer

I find it interesting and positive that Oracle supports OpenVMS
Bootcamp. And represented not just by Rdb team but also by
OCI team (*).

SCI is familiar names like Keith Parris and Norman Lastovica.

JCC I do not now. It looks like they are also in databases.
One could get the impression that the VMS world is quite
database heavy.

Pia-Sofer is another familiar name Gérard Calliet.

Arne

*) OCI is OCI (Oracle Cloud Infrastructure) not OCI (Oracle
Call Interface). We all love acronyms! :-)

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