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Latter 70s they were The Thing.
Needed a 64/128 processor in an 8-bit world, then
bit-slice processors were yer fix.
They were the basics of a CPU - but wired so you
could physically attach them to MORE processors.
All the necessary flags/registers/etc could be
expanded wider and wider.
You could buy 2-bit, 4-bit, slice processors and
physically build something much stronger.
I even remember hearing of them mentioned in some
cheap TV series - some geek with his own R2D2
clone that was WAY too capable for the era.
TODAY ... well ... you can make a 64/128 on like
a 1cm die - really party on a 2cm die.
Bit-slice now - you'd loose far too much in
the interface wiring. Really no longer a
solution - unless maybe you need a 1024/2048
processor :-)
Kinda the same goes for 'Transputers' - parallel
solution using ultra-speed (for the day) serial
links between many processors to coordinate
things between all the chips (they could have
a shared memory area too).
Older tech limitations spawned FIXES ... there
were many. Some were very *clever* - might even
have future apps.
On 07/12/2024 07:33, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Latter 70s they were The Thing.As an engineer it always amazes me on how such little things the success of a technology depends.
Needed a 64/128 processor in an 8-bit world, then
bit-slice processors were yer fix.
They were the basics of a CPU - but wired so you
could physically attach them to MORE processors.
All the necessary flags/registers/etc could be
expanded wider and wider.
You could buy 2-bit, 4-bit, slice processors and
physically build something much stronger.
I even remember hearing of them mentioned in some
cheap TV series - some geek with his own R2D2
clone that was WAY too capable for the era.
TODAY ... well ... you can make a 64/128 on like
a 1cm die - really party on a 2cm die.
Bit-slice now - you'd loose far too much in
the interface wiring. Really no longer a
solution - unless maybe you need a 1024/2048
processor :-)
Kinda the same goes for 'Transputers' - parallel
solution using ultra-speed (for the day) serial
links between many processors to coordinate
things between all the chips (they could have
a shared memory area too).
Older tech limitations spawned FIXES ... there
were many. Some were very *clever* - might even
have future apps.
Aircraft could have been invented hundreds of years earlier if a lightweight power source had turned up, but steam wasn't good enough, and it took oil petrol or gas to make the power sources light enough.
Today's electric cars fail because the batteries simple are barely good enough to replace IC.
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
Yet the advance of photolithography and quantum theory made the integrated circuit a possibility, the Cold War mandated the need for small light electronics for missiles, and here we are.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there
is no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
Jesus christ... don't get me started! In the mainstream press
people _still_ write and say that 100% solar or 100% wind is the only
viable way. I cannot bear to read it! And when I ask how much a
battery storage system would cost that could store all the power for
a country, for x days, there is never an answer.
Maybe, just maybe, it might be possible to have 100% solar in africa somewhere, but it would still need storage capacity for the night.
Yet the advance of photolithography and quantum theory made the
integrated circuit a possibility, the Cold War mandated the need for
small light electronics for missiles, and here we are.
Jesus christ... don't get me started! In the mainstream press people
_still_ write and say that 100% solar or 100% wind is the only viable
way. I cannot bear to read it! And when I ask how much a battery storage system would cost that could store all the power for a country, for x
days, there is never an answer.
Maybe, just maybe, it might be possible to have 100% solar in africa somewhere, but it would still need storage capacity for the night.
Nighttime is the big one. Until the world's electric grids are
sufficiently interconnected that power generated in the Saraha Desert
at noon can be shipped to the other side of the world where it is dark
to supply power to that location there*must* be some storage, somehow,
to account for night/twilight/a run of 14+ overcast days/etc.
And, even if the world's electric grid was interconnected sufficient to
ship solar power from Africa to the other side of the globe, we measly
humans would simply use those interconnnects to try to enforce
geopolitical rules on other locations we don't like by attempting to
deny them "night time power".
<snip/>
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is
no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
<snip/>
On 12/7/24 9:29 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<snip/>
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is
no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
<snip/>
I've heard rumors of alternative technologies for energy storage being explored besides storage of electrical energy. One example would be a device that stores energy not as electrical energy, but instead as
potential kinetic energy, storing the energy by lifting a large mass and releasing it by dropping the large mass. That particular one is one
that i doubt will ever get off the ground, but the same basic principle
of converting electrical energy to some other, more convenient-to-store
form of energy is behind the ideas i've seen floated around.
On 07/12/2024 17:35, D wrote:
Jesus christ... don't get me started! In the mainstream press people
_still_ write and say that 100% solar or 100% wind is the only viable way. >> I cannot bear to read it! And when I ask how much a battery storage system >> would cost that could store all the power for a country, for x days, there >> is never an answer.
Maybe, just maybe, it might be possible to have 100% solar in africa
somewhere, but it would still need storage capacity for the night.
In Africa, the greatest need is for light at night.
Followed by refrigerators, and clean water.
Then comes music sound systems and the TV and mobile phones :-)
Back in the day the Cuban Marxists told the township boys 'come the revolution, you will all have swimming pools and a Mercedes.
A Zulu friend from Soweto asked me to comment.
I got in touch with someone in the then apartheid government who said 'at the rate we are going there won't be enough water for every home to even have a flush toilet'
30 years later, that is the reality of South Africa. And it's 30 years of communist government.
There is barely enough clean water to drink.
The only reliable power is one nuclear power station and a lot of coal ones. And the educated white 'Liberals' are wanting 'renewable energy'
Sure by putting thousands of Rands of batteries in your house and solar panels on the roof you can survive a hot African night without power, and you need to because the grid load sheds every day in winter.
But who will pay for it? The townships are effectively powered for free by people attaching crocodile clips to the overheads. And it is too politically sensitive to actually stop them...
As usual after popular revolutions the next thing is those who grab power fucking everything up completely in a blaze of greed, nepotism and paranoia.
On 07/12/2024 18:24, Rich wrote:
Nighttime is the big one. Until the world's electric grids areWhen I did all these calculations years ago the answer that came up every time was 'nuclear is simply cheaper, more reliable, more self sufficient and in every way better'
sufficiently interconnected that power generated in the Saraha Desert
at noon can be shipped to the other side of the world where it is dark
to supply power to that location there*must* be some storage, somehow,
to account for night/twilight/a run of 14+ overcast days/etc.
And, even if the world's electric grid was interconnected sufficient to
ship solar power from Africa to the other side of the globe, we measly
humans would simply use those interconnnects to try to enforce
geopolitical rules on other locations we don't like by attempting to
deny them "night time power".
Or the Russians would cut the cable anyway, just for kicks.
On 12/7/24 9:29 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<snip/>
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is no
storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
<snip/>
I've heard rumors of alternative technologies for energy storage being explored besides storage of electrical energy. One example would be a device that stores energy not as electrical energy, but instead as potential kinetic energy, storing the energy by lifting a large mass and releasing it by dropping the large mass. That particular one is one that i doubt will ever get off the ground, but the same basic principle of converting electrical energy to some other, more convenient-to-store form of energy is behind the ideas i've seen floated around.
That is essentially the physics behind pumped (hydroelectric) storage,
which achieves about 75% turn round efficiency. If you consider the size
of the the lakes involved and the amount of energy that may be
stored...you sigh and realise its better to build a nuclear power
station that doesn't need the storage in the first place.
It works, but without suitable geography the build cost is phenomenal.
The reality is that if anything really worked we would have seen it implemented already. 'Sustainable' energy is a chimaera that always
needs 'more publicly funded research' and never really delivers.
Latter 70s they were The Thing.
Needed a 64/128 processor in an 8-bit world, then
bit-slice processors were yer fix.
They were the basics of a CPU - but wired so you
could physically attach them to MORE processors.
All the necessary flags/registers/etc could be
expanded wider and wider.
You could buy 2-bit, 4-bit, slice processors and
physically build something much stronger.
I even remember hearing of them mentioned in some
cheap TV series - some geek with his own R2D2
clone that was WAY too capable for the era.
TODAY ... well ... you can make a 64/128 on like
a 1cm die - really party on a 2cm die.
Bit-slice now - you'd loose far too much in
the interface wiring. Really no longer a
solution - unless maybe you need a 1024/2048
processor :-)
Kinda the same goes for 'Transputers' - parallel
solution using ultra-speed (for the day) serial
links between many processors to coordinate
things between all the chips (they could have
a shared memory area too).
Older tech limitations spawned FIXES ... there
were many. Some were very *clever* - might even
have future apps.
I still think the chinese boat sits between sweden and denmark. Will be
fun to see what they find out once they get permission from china to
board the ship and interview the captain.
But today, no, it is not feasable today, other than on a very small
scale (single household) to be 100% solar and have sufficient storage to cover for some amount of "sun isn't shining" days.
On 07/12/2024 07:33, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Latter 70s they were The Thing.As an engineer it always amazes me on how such little things the success
Needed a 64/128 processor in an 8-bit world, then
bit-slice processors were yer fix.
They were the basics of a CPU - but wired so you
could physically attach them to MORE processors.
All the necessary flags/registers/etc could be
expanded wider and wider.
You could buy 2-bit, 4-bit, slice processors and
physically build something much stronger.
I even remember hearing of them mentioned in some
cheap TV series - some geek with his own R2D2
clone that was WAY too capable for the era.
TODAY ... well ... you can make a 64/128 on like
a 1cm die - really party on a 2cm die.
Bit-slice now - you'd loose far too much in
the interface wiring. Really no longer a
solution - unless maybe you need a 1024/2048
processor :-)
Kinda the same goes for 'Transputers' - parallel
solution using ultra-speed (for the day) serial
links between many processors to coordinate
things between all the chips (they could have
a shared memory area too).
Older tech limitations spawned FIXES ... there
were many. Some were very *clever* - might even
have future apps.
of a technology depends.
Aircraft could have been invented hundreds of years earlier if a
lightweight power source had turned up, but steam wasn't good enough,
and it took oil petrol or gas to make the power sources light enough.
electric cars fail because the batteries simple are barely good
enough to replace IC.
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is
no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
Yet the advance of photolithography and quantum theory made the
integrated circuit a possibility, the Cold War mandated the need for
small light electronics for missiles, and here we are.
On 07/12/2024 20:15, BlueManedHawk wrote:
On 12/7/24 9:29 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<snip/>
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there
is no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
<snip/>
I've heard rumors of alternative technologies for energy storage being
explored besides storage of electrical energy. One example would be a
device that stores energy not as electrical energy, but instead as
potential kinetic energy, storing the energy by lifting a large mass
and releasing it by dropping the large mass. That particular one is
one that i doubt will ever get off the ground, but the same basic
principle of converting electrical energy to some other, more
convenient-to-store form of energy is behind the ideas i've seen
floated around.
That is essentially the physics behind pumped (hydroelectric) storage,
which achieves about 75% turn round efficiency. If you consider the size
of the the lakes involved and the amount of energy that may be
stored...you sigh and realise its better to build a nuclear power
station that doesn't need the storage in the first place.
It works, but without suitable geography the build cost is phenomenal.
A much more reasonable solution is the molten salt cooled nuclear
reactor where molten salt can be stored ready for peak power delivery
above the capability of the reactor in its steady state.
The reality is that if anything really worked we would have seen it implemented already. 'Sustainable' energy is a chimaera that always
needs 'more publicly funded research' and never really delivers.
We will have to put up with its constant bleating and claims to be the 'energy of the future' until enough people get so fucking fed up with it
they demand something that actually works. Like nuclear power...
Well, Musk sells gigantic lithium batteries
HAVE looked into what could be called "low-headwater hydro" ... ie
tapping SMALL dams or even river flows.
With modern design software efficient turbines MIGHT be made.
Envision 'farms' of raft-looking generator platforms in the
Mississippi. Low-RPM blades wouldn't even kill fish.
And, unfortunately, sustainable energy is in an uphill battle with
people's obsession with "sustainable" growth. Now _there's_ a chimaera.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 18:24:17 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
But today, no, it is not feasable today, other than on a very small
scale (single household) to be 100% solar and have sufficient storage to
cover for some amount of "sun isn't shining" days.
The solar companies here take another tack since pure solar isn't feasible this far north. According to them when the sun is shining you pump electricity into the grid, giving you credits when you're pulling from the grid. Even then I assume their payback figures are well cooked.
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:33:41 +0100, D wrote:
I still think the chinese boat sits between sweden and denmark. Will be
fun to see what they find out once they get permission from china to
board the ship and interview the captain.
The part I liked is how they homed in on the Chinese ship. Satellite
photos showed it moving slower than usual -- almost like it was dragging a giant hook behind it.
On 12/7/24 4:10 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/12/2024 20:15, BlueManedHawk wrote:
On 12/7/24 9:29 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<snip/>
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is no >>>> storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
<snip/>
I've heard rumors of alternative technologies for energy storage being
explored besides storage of electrical energy. One example would be a
device that stores energy not as electrical energy, but instead as
potential kinetic energy, storing the energy by lifting a large mass and >>> releasing it by dropping the large mass. That particular one is one that >>> i doubt will ever get off the ground, but the same basic principle of
converting electrical energy to some other, more convenient-to-store form >>> of energy is behind the ideas i've seen floated around.
That is essentially the physics behind pumped (hydroelectric) storage,
which achieves about 75% turn round efficiency. If you consider the size of >> the the lakes involved and the amount of energy that may be stored...you
sigh and realise its better to build a nuclear power station that doesn't
need the storage in the first place.
It works, but without suitable geography the build cost is phenomenal.
A much more reasonable solution is the molten salt cooled nuclear reactor >> where molten salt can be stored ready for peak power delivery above the
capability of the reactor in its steady state.
The reality is that if anything really worked we would have seen it
implemented already. 'Sustainable' energy is a chimaera that always needs >> 'more publicly funded research' and never really delivers.
We will have to put up with its constant bleating and claims to be the
'energy of the future' until enough people get so fucking fed up with it
they demand something that actually works. Like nuclear power...
In the 1st world, suitable GEOGRAPHY is a BIGGIE. Land
is EXPENSIVE ... an then the ultra-greenies will freak
about tiny bugs and plants and fish.
This limits hydro-anything. Basically if it's not already
there, you ain't gonna be allowed to do it.
Nuke, in some ways, IS easier. Hey, Iran is making LOTS
of uranium these days ... :-)
I'm a fan of "pebble bed" - but 'super hot' seems to
be more popular real-world. A mistake IMHO.
Modern flywheels - super-sized - COULD store rather a
lot of energy. However you'd need to bury them a little
Just In Case.
Lithium packs ... just WAIT for the huge fire ...
HAVE looked into what could be called "low-headwater
hydro" ... ie tapping SMALL dams or even river flows.
With modern design software efficient turbines MIGHT
be made. Envision 'farms' of raft-looking generator
platforms in the Mississippi. Low-RPM blades wouldn't
even kill fish.
Yea yea, I know the laws of thermodynamics - but if
you can dip into 'low delta' CHEAPLY enough ....
There just doesn't seem to be any 'perfect' solution
at present. Even 99.9% efficient PV cells would not
solve all the issues. For now, some sensible MIX of
technologies is the best course. Alas POLITICS tends
to squeeze the 'sensible' out of everything.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 01:08:41 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, Musk sells gigantic lithium batteries
I'm waiting for more accurate information but there is a rumor Musk may
pivot to hydrogen. Great, another technology with no supporting infrastructure.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 18:24:17 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
But today, no, it is not feasable today, other than on a very small
scale (single household) to be 100% solar and have sufficient
storage to cover for some amount of "sun isn't shining" days.
The solar companies here take another tack since pure solar isn't
feasible this far north. According to them when the sun is shining
you pump electricity into the grid, giving you credits when you're
pulling from the grid. Even then I assume their payback figures are
well cooked.
Is the grid prepared for this working at scale? And it seems to me that
all solar would "sell" at the same time, driving down the price to zero or even creating an excess,
while all the ones in this system would need energy at the same time
(night) driving the price up, therefore again, needing some kind of
storage.
Modern flywheels - super-sized - COULD store rather a lot of
energy. However you'd need to bury them a little Just In Case.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 01:08:41 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, Musk sells gigantic lithium batteries
I'm waiting for more accurate information but there is a rumor Musk may
pivot to hydrogen. Great, another technology with no supporting
infrastructure.
Wow, Toyota would celebrate! I think they are still clinging to hydrogen.
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Modern flywheels - super-sized - COULD store rather a lot of
energy. However you'd need to bury them a little Just In Case.
The physics of flywheels begin to bite you in the a** when you start
trying to "supersize" them for storage of significant amounts of
energy. You need exotic super strong materials (read as: "super
costly" and/or "does not exist yet") to prevent them from pulling
themselves apart rather explosively.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 18:24:17 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
But today, no, it is not feasable today, other than on a very small
scale (single household) to be 100% solar and have sufficient
storage to cover for some amount of "sun isn't shining" days.
The solar companies here take another tack since pure solar isn't
feasible this far north. According to them when the sun is shining
you pump electricity into the grid, giving you credits when you're
pulling from the grid. Even then I assume their payback figures are
well cooked.
Is the grid prepared for this working at scale? And it seems to me that
all solar would "sell" at the same time, driving down the price to zero or >> even creating an excess,
Already happens, fairly regularally in CA based on news reports.
Midday wholesale electric rates often go negative (electricy suppliers
will pay you to use electricity).
while all the ones in this system would need energy at the same time
(night) driving the price up, therefore again, needing some kind of
storage.
This is the current kink. There is often enough abundance midday that
the price is negative (or generation is curtailed because it has no
sink into which to go). Nighttime, however, is a very different story.
Reality is, given current tech., pricing, and installed base, some form
of "base generation" using existing tech. (coal, gas, nuclear, hydro)
is required to last through the nights (and the 'days of overcast' that sometimes happen). Only two of the four are 'carbon free' and only one
is suitable for use in geographic areas without significant volumes of
water running downhill.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 01:08:41 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, Musk sells gigantic lithium batteries
I'm waiting for more accurate information but there is a rumor Musk may
pivot to hydrogen. Great, another technology with no supporting
infrastructure.
Wow, Toyota would celebrate! I think they are still clinging to hydrogen.
Unless there's been some new exotic materials discovered that solves
the hydrogen embrittement problem, hydrogen on a large scale will
either be very very expensive for the pipe/bottle replacements needed,
or will simply create a different sort of "bomb" (vs. a lithum battery
fire) sitting next door.
A better 'solution' (although the catalyst tech may not yet exist) is
some form of electrically driven catalyst that could extract CO2 from
the air and synthesize some form of liquid fuel (liquid at STP). Then
solar PV would have a "sink" for their extra energy, and the
synthesized liquid fuel could be stored in normal non-pressure vessels, piped/transported via the existing liquid fuel infrastructure, and
'burned' at a location remote from the synthesis to "move energy
around".
Of course the rabid greenies would see "burn fuel to make electricity"
as bad, even if the fuel being burned was synthesized via Solar PV
energy and atmospheric CO2 (plus likely water input as well, since one
tends to need some hydrocarbon bonds to create a fuel that is liquid at
STP).
Wow, Toyota would celebrate! I think they are still clinging to
hydrogen.
Is the grid prepared for this working at scale? And it seems to me that
all solar would "sell" at the same time, driving down the price to zero
or even creating an excess, while all the ones in this system would need energy at the same time (night) driving the price up, therefore again, needing some kind of storage.
Liquid Hydrogen Storage: At extremely low temperatures (-253°C),
hydrogen becomes liquid. This method requires insulated cryogenic tanks
to maintain low temperatures and prevent vaporization.
What about storing it as water, and producing it close to where cars need
to be fueled up? I assume it would be very inefficient and probably difficult, or else someone would already have done it. But I do not know
any specifics, so just genuinely curious.
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your
AI's number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang".
That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself explosively combusting as part of the pressure release.
Plus, the walls of the pressure vessel quite effectively become a 'fragmentation grenade' in the process of going bang.
We had to > get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the premises despite hydrogen being safer than acetylene. I could see the
fire marshall thinking 'bomb' when we said 'hydrogen'.
Then there is the problem that most hydrogen comes from processing natural gas rather than green alternative energy sources.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 01:08:41 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Well, Musk sells gigantic lithium batteries
I'm waiting for more accurate information but there is a rumor Musk may
pivot to hydrogen. Great, another technology with no supporting infrastructure.
On 2024-12-08, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your
AI's number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang".
That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself explosively
combusting as part of the pressure release.
I've seen the results of a 200-bar scuba tank letting go.
And that's just a little 80-cubic foot tank filled with air.
Plus, the walls of the pressure vessel quite effectively become a
'fragmentation grenade' in the process of going bang.
<shudder>
On 08/12/2024 16:18, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Modern flywheels - super-sized - COULD store rather a lot of
energy. However you'd need to bury them a little Just In Case.
The physics of flywheels begin to bite you in the a** when you start
trying to "supersize" them for storage of significant amounts of
energy. You need exotic super strong materials (read as: "super
costly" and/or "does not exist yet") to prevent them from pulling
themselves apart rather explosively.
Exactly. Sentences like "COULD store rather a lot of energy." are simple hand-wavey nonsense,.
The UK to be fully 'renewable' for example would need to store the sort
of energy found in half a dozen medium sized strategic nuclear bombs.
However you do that, its damned risky - hydrogen - spinning flywheels -
hydro dams, batteries.
In fact the safest energy store capable of doing it is a set of uranium/plutonium fuel rods. And then you don't need any renewable shit
at all.
Simples!
However to get good efficiency you couldn't burn the hydrogen - huge
FUEL CELLS would be required.
Even then, considerable loss.
On 2024-12-08, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had to > get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the
premises despite hydrogen being safer than acetylene. I could see the
fire marshall thinking 'bomb' when we said 'hydrogen'.
I guess there aren't that many people left who would automatically think "Hindenburg".
Then there is the problem that most hydrogen comes from processing natural >> gas rather than green alternative energy sources.
Local politicians seem to conveniently forget that the energy needed to produce liquefied natural gas for export (let someone else actually create the pollution by burning it) is going to take half of our formerly-abundant hydro power resources.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
What about storing it as water, and producing it close to where cars need
to be fueled up? I assume it would be very inefficient and probably
difficult, or else someone would already have done it. But I do not know
any specifics, so just genuinely curious.
Hydrogen can be stored very safely as water. The earth's covered in a significant amount of "water stored hydrogen". :)
The tricky part is you have to put in a rather significant amount of
energy to convince it (the hydrogen) to let go of it's grip with the
oxygen atoms that make up the water.
And once you create it, and pump it into the car's pressure tank
(you'll need a pressure vessel unless the car has a cryo-cooler on
board, and the energy expended by the cryo-cooler would dwarf the
energy needed to propel the car), you are right back to the
'embrittlement' problem again.
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your
AI's number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang".
That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself explosively combusting as part of the pressure release.
Plus, the walls of the pressure vessel quite effectively become a 'fragmentation grenade' in the process of going bang.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:12:47 +0100, D wrote:
Is the grid prepared for this working at scale? And it seems to me that
all solar would "sell" at the same time, driving down the price to zero
or even creating an excess, while all the ones in this system would need
energy at the same time (night) driving the price up, therefore again,
needing some kind of storage.
I can't say with certainty but my impression from what I've read is the
idea is straight from Cloud Cuckoo Land as far as small residential installations go.
On 2024-12-08, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your
AI's number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang".
That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself explosively
combusting as part of the pressure release.
I've seen the results of a 200-bar scuba tank letting go.
And that's just a little 80-cubic foot tank filled with air.
Plus, the walls of the pressure vessel quite effectively become a
'fragmentation grenade' in the process of going bang.
<shudder>
On 2024-12-08, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
We had to > get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the
premises despite hydrogen being safer than acetylene. I could see the
fire marshall thinking 'bomb' when we said 'hydrogen'.
I guess there aren't that many people left who would automatically think "Hindenburg".
Then there is the problem that most hydrogen comes from processing natural >> gas rather than green alternative energy sources.
Local politicians seem to conveniently forget that the energy needed to produce liquefied natural gas for export (let someone else actually create the pollution by burning it) is going to take half of our formerly-abundant hydro power resources.
Then there is the problem that most hydrogen comes from processing natural gas rather than green alternative energy sources.
So with that in mind, what would be the advantage of a car battery bombIt's easier and legal to get a car battery.
over regular gun powder plus a pipe?
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new, working nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is
no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
On Mon, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
Then there is the problem that most hydrogen comes from processing
natural
gas rather than green alternative energy sources.
Very interesting! Had no idea! I find it funny that this is somehow
never meantioned by the green crowd.
On 2024-12-07 15:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is
no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
I don't know why you are talking of that in this Linux group, but for
your information, we have an island that goes with renewable energy for months, not touching the fueled generators.
<https://www.endesa.com/es/proyectos/todos-los-proyectos/transicion-energetica/renovables/el-hierro-renovable>
<https://www.endesa.com/es/la-cara-e/energias-renovables/gorona-viento-renovable>
On 2024-12-07 15:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Today's electric cars fail because the batteries simple are barely
good enough to replace IC.
I still do not know why you are talking this and not Linux in a Linux
group, but for your info, there are countries that sell more electric
cars than IC, so it works for them.
<https://legrandcontinent.eu/es/2024/10/11/en-noruega-circulan-mas-coches-electricos-que-de-gasolina/>
On 09/12/2024 13:10, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-12-07 15:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:But it still touches the fuelled generators.
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there
is no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
I don't know why you are talking of that in this Linux group, but for
your information, we have an island that goes with renewable energy
for months, not touching the fueled generators.
<https://www.endesa.com/es/proyectos/todos-los-proyectos/transicion-
energetica/renovables/el-hierro-renovable>
<https://www.endesa.com/es/la-cara-e/energias-renovables/gorona-
viento-renovable>
And its a very small island, and it uses pumped storage because it has
hills,
Try that in Holland...
And it isn't as green as you think. Dig deeper into the actual statistics
"The longest it’s powered up the whole island is 25 consecutive days, before the back-up diesel engine had to step in"
That is not 'for months'.
Today's electric cars fail because the batteries simple are barely good enough to replace IC.
On Mon, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:12:47 +0100, D wrote:
Is the grid prepared for this working at scale? And it seems to me that
all solar would "sell" at the same time, driving down the price to zero
or even creating an excess, while all the ones in this system would need >>> energy at the same time (night) driving the price up, therefore again,
needing some kind of storage.
I can't say with certainty but my impression from what I've read is the
idea is straight from Cloud Cuckoo Land as far as small residential
installations go.
I did some research and calculation of how much it would cost with
hydrogen storage for a solar powered house in sweden, and 10 years ago, I found a pilot project in northern sweden, and the cost was about 1 million EUR (give or take).
A couple of months ago I had a look around, and the cost as far as I could estimate, for storage, had dropped to about 500k EUR.
If the decrease in cost continues, it would become feasible with solar in sweden in about 12-20 years time if you're doing it as a hobby.
On 2024-12-09 14:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 13:10, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-12-07 15:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:But it still touches the fuelled generators.
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there
is no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
I don't know why you are talking of that in this Linux group, but for
your information, we have an island that goes with renewable energy
for months, not touching the fueled generators.
<https://www.endesa.com/es/proyectos/todos-los-proyectos/transicion-
energetica/renovables/el-hierro-renovable>
<https://www.endesa.com/es/la-cara-e/energias-renovables/gorona-
viento-renovable>
And its a very small island, and it uses pumped storage because it has
hills,
Try that in Holland...
And it isn't as green as you think. Dig deeper into the actual statistics
"The longest it’s powered up the whole island is 25 consecutive days,
before the back-up diesel engine had to step in"
That is not 'for months'.
Just google deeper and you will find the months.
Yes, certainly there are occasions when it doesn't work, it is early
days. You just can not say that conclusively "it is impossible to do".
So assuming the "no carbon" goal is required, we can't get/there/ from /here/ without something like nuclear to handle what 'storage' claims
it will be able to do, in twenty plus years.
"Carlos E.R." wrote:I always find it amazing that people say things like 'I an so totally
there are countries that sell more electric cars than IC, so it works
for them.
But neither .uk or .es have ~90% hydroelectric power
there are countries that sell more electric cars than IC, so it works
for them.
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Terrorist and criminals use what they can get their hands on
The hexamine fuel used by camping stoves and model steam engines is now outlawed, the bad guys figured out how to make a well known military explosive from it
Terrorist and criminals use what they can get their hands on
On 09/12/2024 09:51, D wrote:
So with that in mind, what would be the advantage of a car battery bombIt's easier and legal to get a car battery.
over regular gun powder plus a pipe?
These gentlemen are not very scientific.
Making gunpowder from chickenshit is quite complex.
Did you know that acetone - a highly useful solvent used extensively by people who make glass fibre components, is also used by people who brew up and purify various drugs. Beware ordering a gallon of it...
The IRA used ammonium nitrate, because it was at that time a legal fertilizer. Today it is controlled and comes mixed with something that stops it going bang.
We used to use sodium chlorate - a weedkiller that is now also banned
Terrorist and criminals use what they can get their hands on
Only the government gets to use the good stuff.
On 09/12/2024 09:53, D wrote:
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new, working
nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
I'm not so sure.
At the moment Rolls Royce is going through the red tape box ticking exercise on their reactors.
They want to deploy the first ones by 2030.
The Czech Republic is working with RR on this as well
There is a huge potential market for the first companies to put together scalable small modular reactors that are in mass production.
Build your concrete structures, pop in a boiler and turbines and some generators and ship a complete reactor in, and plug it in to a factory produced control system, and that's it.
5 years top's is the aim
On 09/12/2024 09:44, D wrote:
On Mon, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
Then there is the problem that most hydrogen comes from processing natural >>> gas rather than green alternative energy sources.
Very interesting! Had no idea! I find it funny that this is somehow never
meantioned by the green crowd.
The theory is that surplus electricity can be used to make hydrogen by electrolysis.
This is of course far more expensive than natural gas, but since when have and EcoCrap™ merchants ever bothered to take their sock s off and learn to count beyond ten anyway? The government will pay for it!
It all goes back to the fraudulent EU and its compact with German manufacturers to mandate 'Renewable energy' *whether it worked or not*.
The same goes for BEVS heat pumps, smart meters and all the other crap
If they had simply taxed carbon fuels we would be all nuclear by now...and be making synthetic diesel
On 2024-12-07 15:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is no
storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
I don't know why you are talking of that in this Linux group, but for your information, we have an island that goes with renewable energy for months, not touching the fueled generators.
<https://www.endesa.com/es/proyectos/todos-los-proyectos/transicion-energetica/renovables/el-hierro-renovable>
<https://www.endesa.com/es/la-cara-e/energias-renovables/gorona-viento-renovable>
On 2024-12-07 15:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Today's electric cars fail because the batteries simple are barely good
enough to replace IC.
I still do not know why you are talking this and not Linux in a Linux group, but for your info, there are countries that sell more electric cars than IC, so it works for them.
<https://legrandcontinent.eu/es/2024/10/11/en-noruega-circulan-mas-coches-electricos-que-de-gasolina/>
On 09/12/2024 13:10, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-12-07 15:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:But it still touches the fuelled generators.
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is no >>> storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
I don't know why you are talking of that in this Linux group, but for your >> information, we have an island that goes with renewable energy for months, >> not touching the fueled generators.
<https://www.endesa.com/es/proyectos/todos-los-proyectos/transicion-energetica/renovables/el-hierro-renovable>
<https://www.endesa.com/es/la-cara-e/energias-renovables/gorona-viento-renovable>
And its a very small island, and it uses pumped storage because it has hills,
Try that in Holland...
And it isn't as green as you think. Dig deeper into the actual statistics
"The longest it’s powered up the whole island is 25 consecutive days, before
the back-up diesel engine had to step in"
That is not 'for months'.
On 09/12/2024 13:15, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-12-07 15:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:The EU has made that a mandatory requirement.
Today's electric cars fail because the batteries simple are barely good
enough to replace IC.
I still do not know why you are talking this and not Linux in a Linux
group, but for your info, there are countries that sell more electric cars >> than IC, so it works for them.
<https://legrandcontinent.eu/es/2024/10/11/en-noruega-circulan-mas-coches-electricos-que-de-gasolina/>
All that has happened is that people are buyng second hand diesels and the electric car plants are shutting down
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Mon, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:12:47 +0100, D wrote:
Is the grid prepared for this working at scale? And it seems to me that >>>> all solar would "sell" at the same time, driving down the price to zero >>>> or even creating an excess, while all the ones in this system would need >>>> energy at the same time (night) driving the price up, therefore again, >>>> needing some kind of storage.
I can't say with certainty but my impression from what I've read is the
idea is straight from Cloud Cuckoo Land as far as small residential
installations go.
I did some research and calculation of how much it would cost with
hydrogen storage for a solar powered house in sweden, and 10 years ago, I
found a pilot project in northern sweden, and the cost was about 1 million >> EUR (give or take).
A couple of months ago I had a look around, and the cost as far as I could >> estimate, for storage, had dropped to about 500k EUR.
If the decrease in cost continues, it would become feasible with solar in
sweden in about 12-20 years time if you're doing it as a hobby.
And therein lies the problem. Most of the "storage" systems are on an exponential increase growth curve. But total energy usage per country/worldwide is so large, that it will take twenty plus years of "doublings" each year before the storage tech is on par with today's
level of consumption. Meanwhile, in twenty plus years, usage has
itself likely increased, so storage is still behind in total, just not
as far behind as it is today.
Yet, if the 'climate folk' are to be believed, we need to achieve zero
carbon input into the atmosphere yesterday, not twenty plus years into
the future.
So assuming the "no carbon" goal is required, we can't get /there/ from /here/ without something like nuclear to handle what 'storage' claims
it will be able to do, in twenty plus years.
On 09/12/2024 13:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-12-09 14:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No, I wont
On 09/12/2024 13:10, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-12-07 15:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:But it still touches the fuelled generators.
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there
is no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
I don't know why you are talking of that in this Linux group, but
for your information, we have an island that goes with renewable
energy for months, not touching the fueled generators.
<https://www.endesa.com/es/proyectos/todos-los-proyectos/transicion-
energetica/renovables/el-hierro-renovable>
<https://www.endesa.com/es/la-cara-e/energias-renovables/gorona-
viento-renovable>
And its a very small island, and it uses pumped storage because it
has hills,
Try that in Holland...
And it isn't as green as you think. Dig deeper into the actual
statistics
"The longest it’s powered up the whole island is 25 consecutive days,
before the back-up diesel engine had to step in"
That is not 'for months'.
Just google deeper and you will find the months.
Yes, certainly there are occasions when it doesn't work, it is earlyYou yourself have shown that it is impossible to do.
days. You just can not say that conclusively "it is impossible to do".
Your example proves my case.
No one has done it yet, nor its it likely they ever will, unless its a
tiny island with lots of hydro power.
It is impossible to do for most ordinary countries
And the cost of that attempt was insane.
On 09/12/2024 13:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-12-09 14:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No, I wont
On 09/12/2024 13:10, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-12-07 15:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:But it still touches the fuelled generators.
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is >>>>> no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
I don't know why you are talking of that in this Linux group, but for
your information, we have an island that goes with renewable energy for >>>> months, not touching the fueled generators.
<https://www.endesa.com/es/proyectos/todos-los-proyectos/transicion-
energetica/renovables/el-hierro-renovable>
<https://www.endesa.com/es/la-cara-e/energias-renovables/gorona-
viento-renovable>
And its a very small island, and it uses pumped storage because it has
hills,
Try that in Holland...
And it isn't as green as you think. Dig deeper into the actual statistics >>>
"The longest it’s powered up the whole island is 25 consecutive days,
before the back-up diesel engine had to step in"
That is not 'for months'.
Just google deeper and you will find the months.
Yes, certainly there are occasions when it doesn't work, it is early days. >> You just can not say that conclusively "it is impossible to do".You yourself have shown that it is impossible to do.
Your example proves my case.
No one has done it yet, nor its it likely they ever will, unless its a tiny island with lots of hydro power.
It is impossible to do for most ordinary countries
And the cost of that attempt was insane.
On 09/12/2024 15:35, Rich wrote:
So assuming the "no carbon" goal is required, we can't get/there/ from
/here/ without something like nuclear to handle what 'storage' claims
it will be able to do, in twenty plus years.
Its all nonsense.
I spent ages analysing all the options and nothing in the end was cheaper or more effective overall than nuclear power, and that wouldn't cover the industrial and transport uses of fossil fuels any more than 'renewables'...
You can't drive a truck on batteries across America, or a container ship from Taiwan.
Sweden is investing in new nuclear power..
In the end the rising price of fossil will move us towards nuclear power simply because it offers a competitive cost benefit vis à vis systems of inordinate complexity based on intermittent renewable power.
The future will be mainly nuclear, and since once you have any nuclear at all there is no reason to make it more expensive and less reliable and destroy the environment with renewable energy, no one will.
Renewables aren't dead yet, but they are beginning to smell..
On 09/12/2024 16:52, Andy Burns wrote:
"Carlos E.R." wrote:I always find it amazing that people say things like 'I an so totally off grid' and you look at what they have done and how much fossil fuel was used to build it and transport it to their homes, and how much food they buy still uses natural gas for fertilizer and how their homes feature things made of steel, plastics and cement or brick...and an internet connection...
there are countries that sell more electric cars than IC, so it works for >>> them.
But neither .uk or .es have ~90% hydroelectric power
And you just think what a delusional bunch of 'see-you-next-tuesday's they actually are.
The whole renewable fantasy is like a 2 year old saying 'look mummy, I can jump over a toy rabbit, and then again at 5 years old 'look I can jump over a chair - by the time I am 50 I will be able to jump over tall buildings with a single bound!'
Greens would be rather sweet if they hadn't been given a vote.
"Carlos E.R." wrote:
there are countries that sell more electric cars than IC, so it works
for them.
But neither .uk or .es have ~90% hydroelectric power
But how is this solved in existing hydrogen cars? Hydrogen cars exist,
so surely they must have some way to at least mitigate this problem?
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Terrorist and criminals use what they can get their hands on
The hexamine fuel used by camping stoves and model steam engines is now outlawed, the bad guys figured out how to make a well known military explosive from it
I think making gun powder is very simple. There's loads of youtube
videos,
and I imagine that a couple of pipe bombs would be far easier and more explosive than car battery bombs.
It all goes back to the fraudulent EU and its compact with German manufacturers to mandate 'Renewable energy' *whether it worked or not*.
On Mon, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
Then there is the problem that most hydrogen comes from processingVery interesting! Had no idea! I find it funny that this is somehow
natural gas rather than green alternative energy sources.
never meantioned by the green crowd.
I still do not know why you are talking this and not Linux in a Linux
group, but for your info, there are countries that sell more electric
cars than IC, so it works for them.
I always find it amazing that people say things like 'I an so totally
off grid' and you look at what they have done and how much fossil fuel
was used to build it and transport it to their homes, and how much food
they buy still uses natural gas for fertilizer and how their homes
feature things made of steel, plastics and cement or brick...and an
internet connection...
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new, working nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
Germany managed to help the extreme left and the extreme right with
their ridiculous nuclear policy. Given their history, I'm surprised they didn't see it coming.
Build your concrete structures, pop in a boiler and turbines and some generators and ship a complete reactor in, and plug it in to a factory produced control system, and that's it.
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly*
more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything* else?
Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more coherent/ relevant refresher course...
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Renewables aren't dead yet, but they are beginning to smell..
I agree. Nuclear is the future. There will be smaller niche cases for
solar and wind, in country side homes during the summer, or by using tax subsidies to get some extra solar into data centers, but as you say, once
our nuclear knowledge has been rebuilt and regained, it should be
possible, in theory, to build traditional nuclear in 3-5 years (I think
south korea is doing it in 5 currently) and SMR:s will hopefully be even faster.
On 12/8/24 7:17 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-08, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your AI's
number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang".
That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself
explosively combusting as part of the pressure release.
I've seen the results of a 200-bar scuba tank letting go. And
that's just a little 80-cubic foot tank filled with air.
I've seen that too - close up. Blew out a reinforced CBC wall
...... sheer dumb luck nobody was in the filling room at the time
or they'd have been Spam.
Plus, the walls of the pressure vessel quite effectively become a
'fragmentation grenade' in the process of going bang.
<shudder>
High-pressure containers - esp ones that have to 'cycle' often -
are a bomb waiting to go off. Fatigue/corrosion take their awful
toll - then BOOM !
If the boom is a flammable gas ... far worse.
Hydrogen CAN have its uses - but at "industrial" sites, not out in
public. You can feed it into expensive fuel cells, you can mix
x-percent with natural gas.
But as a general-purpose 'motor fuel' ... NO ! Besides, no proper
infrastructure for it.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-08, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your
AI's number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang".
That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself explosively
combusting as part of the pressure release.
I've seen the results of a 200-bar scuba tank letting go.
And that's just a little 80-cubic foot tank filled with air.
How did this happen? In sweden, there is an epidemic of bombings for the
past couple of years, since crazy drug dealing arabians are waging some
kind of war with hand grenades, and car battery bombs in the bigger
cities.
Would using scuba tanks be a cheaper way for them to bomb each other?
Also, how does a car battery bomb work?
I'ev seen videos of exploding lithium batteries, but that does not
look as efficient to me as just producing good, old, gun powder at
home and making your own.
So with that in mind, what would be the advantage of a car battery bomb
over regular gun powder plus a pipe?
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 09:51, D wrote:
So with that in mind, what would be the advantage of a car battery bombIt's easier and legal to get a car battery.
over regular gun powder plus a pipe?
These gentlemen are not very scientific.
Making gunpowder from chickenshit is quite complex.
Did you know that acetone - a highly useful solvent used extensively by
people who make glass fibre components, is also used by people who brew up >> and purify various drugs. Beware ordering a gallon of it...
The IRA used ammonium nitrate, because it was at that time a legal
fertilizer. Today it is controlled and comes mixed with something that stops >> it going bang.
We used to use sodium chlorate - a weedkiller that is now also banned
Terrorist and criminals use what they can get their hands on
Only the government gets to use the good stuff.
I think making gun powder is very simple. There's loads of youtube videos, and I imagine that a couple of pipe bombs would be far easier and more explosive than car battery bombs.
Fun fact... a swedish wanna be terrorist was caught because he went into a hardware store bought 20 car batteries and the store thought it was suspicious that a bearded gentleman from the middle east should suddenly
buy 20 car batteries! =D
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
What about storing it as water, and producing it close to where cars need >>> to be fueled up? I assume it would be very inefficient and probably
difficult, or else someone would already have done it. But I do not know >>> any specifics, so just genuinely curious.
Hydrogen can be stored very safely as water. The earth's covered in a
significant amount of "water stored hydrogen". :)
The tricky part is you have to put in a rather significant amount of
energy to convince it (the hydrogen) to let go of it's grip with the
oxygen atoms that make up the water.
And once you create it, and pump it into the car's pressure tank
(you'll need a pressure vessel unless the car has a cryo-cooler on
board, and the energy expended by the cryo-cooler would dwarf the
energy needed to propel the car), you are right back to the
'embrittlement' problem again.
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your
AI's number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang".
That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself explosively
combusting as part of the pressure release.
Plus, the walls of the pressure vessel quite effectively become a
'fragmentation grenade' in the process of going bang.
But how is this solved in existing hydrogen cars?
Hydrogen cars exist, so surely they must have some way to at least
mitigate this problem?
As for converting hydrogen "on site" I can imagine two limiting factors.
1. The speed of conversion. Can you convert hydrogen on site, fast enough,
to fill up a car in 5-10 minutes?
and
2. The cost of converting water to hydrogen in a smaller setup, vs doing
it somewhere central and shipping it.
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 12/8/24 7:17 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-08, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your AI's
number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang".
That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself
explosively combusting as part of the pressure release.
I've seen the results of a 200-bar scuba tank letting go. And
that's just a little 80-cubic foot tank filled with air.
I've seen that too - close up. Blew out a reinforced CBC wall
...... sheer dumb luck nobody was in the filling room at the time
or they'd have been Spam.
Plus, the walls of the pressure vessel quite effectively become a
'fragmentation grenade' in the process of going bang.
<shudder>
High-pressure containers - esp ones that have to 'cycle' often -
are a bomb waiting to go off. Fatigue/corrosion take their awful
toll - then BOOM !
If the boom is a flammable gas ... far worse.
Hydrogen CAN have its uses - but at "industrial" sites, not out in
public. You can feed it into expensive fuel cells, you can mix
x-percent with natural gas.
But as a general-purpose 'motor fuel' ... NO ! Besides, no proper
infrastructure for it.
For a 'motor fuel' it is difficult to replace the benefits of liquids
that do not need pressure vessels (beyond their own evaporation
pressure, which is usually quite mild). We have an entire setup in
place for transporting, storing, and dispensing liquids (gas/diesel
pumps).
But, to avoid more 'carbon' in the air, the liquids have to be
synthesized somehow from carbon already in the air. And that we don't
have on a scale large enough to be a source to replace our current
liquid fuels.
On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
What about storing it as water, and producing it close to where cars
need
to be fueled up? I assume it would be very inefficient and probably
difficult, or else someone would already have done it. But I do not know >>> any specifics, so just genuinely curious.
Hydrogen can be stored very safely as water. The earth's covered in a
significant amount of "water stored hydrogen". :)
The tricky part is you have to put in a rather significant amount of
energy to convince it (the hydrogen) to let go of it's grip with the
oxygen atoms that make up the water.
And once you create it, and pump it into the car's pressure tank
(you'll need a pressure vessel unless the car has a cryo-cooler on
board, and the energy expended by the cryo-cooler would dwarf the
energy needed to propel the car), you are right back to the
'embrittlement' problem again.
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your
AI's number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang".
That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself explosively
combusting as part of the pressure release.
Plus, the walls of the pressure vessel quite effectively become a
'fragmentation grenade' in the process of going bang.
But how is this solved in existing hydrogen cars? Hydrogen cars exist,
so surely they must have some way to at least mitigate this problem?
As for converting hydrogen "on site" I can imagine two limiting factors.
1. The speed of conversion. Can you convert hydrogen on site, fast
enough, to fill up a car in 5-10 minutes?
and
2. The cost of converting water to hydrogen in a smaller setup, vs doing
it somewhere central and shipping it.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 13:58:47 -0800, John Ames wrote:
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly*
more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything* else?
Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more coherent/
relevant refresher course...
Feel free to start a thread.
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff'
On 2024-12-09 17:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 13:51, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-12-09 14:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No, I wont
On 09/12/2024 13:10, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-12-07 15:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:But it still touches the fuelled generators.
Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is >>>>>> no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
I don't know why you are talking of that in this Linux group, but for >>>>> your information, we have an island that goes with renewable energy for >>>>> months, not touching the fueled generators.
<https://www.endesa.com/es/proyectos/todos-los-proyectos/transicion- >>>>> energetica/renovables/el-hierro-renovable>
<https://www.endesa.com/es/la-cara-e/energias-renovables/gorona-
viento-renovable>
And its a very small island, and it uses pumped storage because it has >>>> hills,
Try that in Holland...
And it isn't as green as you think. Dig deeper into the actual statistics >>>>
"The longest it’s powered up the whole island is 25 consecutive days, >>>> before the back-up diesel engine had to step in"
That is not 'for months'.
Just google deeper and you will find the months.
Yes, certainly there are occasions when it doesn't work, it is early days. >>> You just can not say that conclusively "it is impossible to do".You yourself have shown that it is impossible to do.
Your example proves my case.
No one has done it yet, nor its it likely they ever will, unless its a tiny >> island with lots of hydro power.
It is impossible to do for most ordinary countries
And the cost of that attempt was insane.
I have proven that it is possible. Just do it, eventually. We have to do it to survive. I'm lucky to have no descendants.
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly*
more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything* else?
Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more coherent/ relevant refresher course...
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 17:23:04 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Terrorist and criminals use what they can get their hands on
The hexamine fuel used by camping stoves and model steam engines is now
outlawed, the bad guys figured out how to make a well known military
explosive from it
That must be an European thing. Amazon still shows Coghlan's hexamine
tablits for my Esbit stove. If I use Tor, which comes out of the rabbit
hole in the Netherlands today it says they can't be delivered to my
address.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:49:48 +0100, D wrote:
But how is this solved in existing hydrogen cars? Hydrogen cars exist,
so surely they must have some way to at least mitigate this problem?
https://www.toyota.com/mirai/
"How Safe Is Hydrogen?
Mirai’s hydrogen fuel tanks have been rigorously tested and proven to meet Global Technical Regulation No. 13. * If the hydrogen sensors detect a
leak or a collision, the hydrogen tank valves will automatically close to prevent more hydrogen from escaping while any hydrogen that is leaked will safely return to the atmosphere."
That doesn't address the integrity of the composite fuel tanks.
https://unece.org/sites/default/files/2023-07/ECE-TRANS-180-Add.13- Amend1e.pdf
That's a definite tl;dr document but as far as I got it seemed to
recommend controlled leakage before the tanks burst and tried to determine the number of cycles before problems occur. However one paragraph was a disclaimer saying they don't have enough real world data to be sure.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 21:49:25 +0100, D wrote:
I think making gun powder is very simple. There's loads of youtube
videos,
and I imagine that a couple of pipe bombs would be far easier and more
explosive than car battery bombs.
When I was a kid I could walk down the street to the local pharmacy and
buy potassium nitrate and flowers of sulfur. The pharmacist probably knew what I was up to but kids were expected to blow things up back then. I
could also get iodine crystals for my nitrogen triiodide experiments. It's too unstable to be very useful but it does make a nifty purple cloud when
it blows.
I only remember one kid getting injured and that was from the low rent activity of stuffing match heads into a CO2 capsule. Darwinian selection
at work.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 21:51:48 +0100, D wrote:
Germany managed to help the extreme left and the extreme right with
their ridiculous nuclear policy. Given their history, I'm surprised they
didn't see it coming.
There is a lot of that going around. The French managed to get the RN and
NFP on the same page while Trump has collected a menagerie of strange bedfellows.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:44:32 +0100, D wrote:
On Mon, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
Then there is the problem that most hydrogen comes from processingVery interesting! Had no idea! I find it funny that this is somehow
natural gas rather than green alternative energy sources.
never meantioned by the green crowd.
https://www.brightgreenlies.com/book
'Bright Green Lies' by Derrik Jensen.
Jensen is not a fossil fuels industry apologist by any means. He is one of the founders of Deep Green Resistance that is considered too radical by
some environmentalists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Green_Resistance
The book gets somewhat redundant as he works his way through the various green technologies. For each he starts with the extractive industries that are required. Solar cells? There are two prevalent technologies for PV
cells. One uses cadmium and tellurium and the other copper, gallium, and indium, plus silicon. What is the impact of producing these materials? How are they mined, transported, and processed? How much heavy equipment must
be produced? How much energy is used during the smelting or other
processing? What other materials are needed for completed PV panels?
After the PV panels are produced, what is required for site preparation?
What are the ecological impacts of huge solar projects? What is required
to produce and install the distribution network?
The same analysis is done for wind, hydro, and so forth. The 'renewable energy' technology is the tip of a huge iceberg of antecedent processes studiously ignored by the bright green environmentalists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bright_green_environmentalism
They parallel the cornucopians that believe there will always be a technological solution to allow our comfortable life style without taking
any hard decisions.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 17:23:04 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Terrorist and criminals use what they can get their hands on
The hexamine fuel used by camping stoves and model steam engines is now
outlawed, the bad guys figured out how to make a well known military
explosive from it
That must be an European thing.
I guess it's the spirit of the age. Our elite politicians have lost
touch with the people and have pissed them off too much. The people
then, naturally, overreact. The rest of the chain of causation is left
as an exercise for the reader. ;)
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 09:51, D wrote:
So with that in mind, what would be the advantage of a car battery bomb >>>> over regular gun powder plus a pipe?It's easier and legal to get a car battery.
These gentlemen are not very scientific.
Making gunpowder from chickenshit is quite complex.
Did you know that acetone - a highly useful solvent used extensively by
people who make glass fibre components, is also used by people who brew up >>> and purify various drugs. Beware ordering a gallon of it...
The IRA used ammonium nitrate, because it was at that time a legal
fertilizer. Today it is controlled and comes mixed with something that stops
it going bang.
We used to use sodium chlorate - a weedkiller that is now also banned
Terrorist and criminals use what they can get their hands on
Only the government gets to use the good stuff.
I think making gun powder is very simple. There's loads of youtube videos, >> and I imagine that a couple of pipe bombs would be far easier and more
explosive than car battery bombs.
Perhaps then it is easier to cart the car battery bomb in somewhere
that a large pipe with caps on both ends and a wire out one end would
raise suspision?
Fun fact... a swedish wanna be terrorist was caught because he went into a >> hardware store bought 20 car batteries and the store thought it was
suspicious that a bearded gentleman from the middle east should suddenly
buy 20 car batteries! =D
Not the sharpest knife that was ever in the drawer.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-08, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your
AI's number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang". >>>> That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself explosively >>>> combusting as part of the pressure release.
I've seen the results of a 200-bar scuba tank letting go.
And that's just a little 80-cubic foot tank filled with air.
How did this happen? In sweden, there is an epidemic of bombings for the
past couple of years, since crazy drug dealing arabians are waging some
kind of war with hand grenades, and car battery bombs in the bigger
cities.
Would using scuba tanks be a cheaper way for them to bomb each other?
Likely not as cheap as a car battery. I see a 2.3L mini scuba tank on
Amazon for $299 (no idea how big a 2.3L mini tank really is). I can
get a car battery for about $100 at the local auto-store.
And the scuba tank will not also spray sulfuric acid over everyone when
it goes "bang". And short of an armor peircing slug, it is probably
more difficult to get a new scuba tank to go "bang" vs becoming a brief
high speed rocket or spinner.
Also, how does a car battery bomb work?
Perhaps google would answer your question... Or perhaps google would
report you to the authorities for even asking the question?
I'ev seen videos of exploding lithium batteries, but that does not
look as efficient to me as just producing good, old, gun powder at
home and making your own.
So with that in mind, what would be the advantage of a car battery bomb
over regular gun powder plus a pipe?
Lack of education maybe? They can buy the car battery at an auto parts
store (no education required, just the local currency) and they likely
have a "script" passed down that they have no idea how/why it works,
but if the do x, y, and z, it does work.
Making gunpower does require some knowledge and skill -- although
presumably it too could be scripted. So perhaps the 'authorities' are watching the gunpowder precursor purchases, but not watching 'car
battery' purchases?
On 12/9/24 8:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 13:58:47 -0800, John Ames wrote:
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly*
more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything* else?
Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more coherent/
relevant refresher course...
Feel free to start a thread.
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff' :-)
Was HOPING for discussion/insight into 'alternative'
schemes for 'CPU's and such derived from older solutions.
Houston, we have a problem .............
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:53:54 +0100, D wrote:
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new, working
nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
If Sweden is like the US it will still be in litigation in 10 years.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 09:53, D wrote:
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new,
working nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
I'm not so sure.
At the moment Rolls Royce is going through the red tape box ticking
exercise on their reactors.
They want to deploy the first ones by 2030.
The Czech Republic is working with RR on this as well
There is a huge potential market for the first companies to put
together scalable small modular reactors that are in mass production.
Build your concrete structures, pop in a boiler and turbines and some
generators and ship a complete reactor in, and plug it in to a factory
produced control system, and that's it.
5 years top's is the aim
This is the government. No SMR:s in sight. They are thinking about
"safe" traditional ones.
If they get it done in 10 years, and if they dare to explore SMR:s, I
will be happily proven wrong.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If they had simply taxed carbon fuels we would be all nuclear by
now...and be making synthetic diesel
Is electricity the primary cost driver of synthetic diesel?
Germany managed to help the extreme left and the extreme right with
their ridiculous nuclear policy. Given their history, I'm surprised they didn't see it coming. ;)
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-08, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your
AI's number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang". >>>>> That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself explosively >>>>> combusting as part of the pressure release.
I've seen the results of a 200-bar scuba tank letting go.
And that's just a little 80-cubic foot tank filled with air.
How did this happen? In sweden, there is an epidemic of bombings for the >>> past couple of years, since crazy drug dealing arabians are waging some
kind of war with hand grenades, and car battery bombs in the bigger
cities.
Would using scuba tanks be a cheaper way for them to bomb each other?
Likely not as cheap as a car battery. I see a 2.3L mini scuba tank on
Amazon for $299 (no idea how big a 2.3L mini tank really is). I can
get a car battery for about $100 at the local auto-store.
And the scuba tank will not also spray sulfuric acid over everyone when
it goes "bang". And short of an armor peircing slug, it is probably
more difficult to get a new scuba tank to go "bang" vs becoming a brief
high speed rocket or spinner.
Also, how does a car battery bomb work?
Perhaps google would answer your question... Or perhaps google would
report you to the authorities for even asking the question?
I did, and my conclusion was that a pipe bombs with gun powder would be lighter, cheaper and more dangerous.
So that's why I ask you knowledgeable guys, since to me, it seems there
are _way_ better ways to cause mayhem than car battery bombs.
have proven that it is possible. Just do it, eventually. We have to do
it to survive. I'm lucky to have no descendants.
On 2024-12-09 17:52, Andy Burns wrote:
"Carlos E.R." wrote:
there are countries that sell more electric cars than IC, so it works
for them.
But neither .uk or .es have ~90% hydroelectric power
Excuses.
Now, back to Linux?
I could argue that solar is great in the sahara,
but that does not make it feasible at scale, so bad example.
We currently do not have the technology, so it would be refreshing if
the EU socialist nobility could stop pissing away our money. But that's
not likely to happen any time soon. I am happy that the UK left, and I
do hope that after Starmer has failed, that the UK can work to become
the financial power house of the world again.
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly*
more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything* else?
Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more coherent/ relevant refresher course...
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:53:54 +0100, D wrote:
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new, working
nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
If Sweden is like the US it will still be in litigation in 10 years.
On 2024-12-09, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Renewables aren't dead yet, but they are beginning to smell..
I agree. Nuclear is the future. There will be smaller niche cases for
solar and wind, in country side homes during the summer, or by using tax
subsidies to get some extra solar into data centers, but as you say, once
our nuclear knowledge has been rebuilt and regained, it should be
possible, in theory, to build traditional nuclear in 3-5 years (I think
south korea is doing it in 5 currently) and SMR:s will hopefully be even
faster.
It's going to be a hard sell, though. The peepul want nothing to do
with that nook-yu-lur stuff. As one hayseed said, "We don't want
no damn atoms around here."
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 12:55:37 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Build your concrete structures, pop in a boiler and turbines and some
generators and ship a complete reactor in, and plug it in to a factory
produced control system, and that's it.
Where were you planning to build your concrete structures? Have you done a complete environmental analysis and responded to the lawsuits by environmentalists and groups that don't want a nuke in their particular
back garden?
For a 'motor fuel' it is difficult to replace the benefits of liquids
that do not need pressure vessels (beyond their own evaporation
pressure, which is usually quite mild). We have an entire setup in
place for transporting, storing, and dispensing liquids (gas/diesel
pumps).
But, to avoid more 'carbon' in the air, the liquids have to be
synthesized somehow from carbon already in the air. And that we don't
have on a scale large enough to be a source to replace our current
liquid fuels.
Making gunpower does require some knowledge and skill -- although
presumably it too could be scripted. So perhaps the 'authorities' are watching the gunpowder precursor purchases, but not watching 'car
battery' purchases?
I did, and my conclusion was that a pipe bombs with gun powder would be lighter, cheaper and more dangerous.
So that's why I ask you knowledgeable guys, since to me, it seems there
are _way_ better ways to cause mayhem than car battery bombs.
On 12/9/24 11:46 PM, Rich wrote:
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 12/8/24 7:17 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-08, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your AI's
number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang".
That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself
explosively combusting as part of the pressure release.
I've seen the results of a 200-bar scuba tank letting go. And
that's just a little 80-cubic foot tank filled with air.
I've seen that too - close up. Blew out a reinforced CBC wall
...... sheer dumb luck nobody was in the filling room at the time >>> or they'd have been Spam.
Plus, the walls of the pressure vessel quite effectively become a
'fragmentation grenade' in the process of going bang.
<shudder>
High-pressure containers - esp ones that have to 'cycle' often -
are a bomb waiting to go off. Fatigue/corrosion take their awful
toll - then BOOM !
If the boom is a flammable gas ... far worse.
Hydrogen CAN have its uses - but at "industrial" sites, not out in
public. You can feed it into expensive fuel cells, you can mix
x-percent with natural gas.
But as a general-purpose 'motor fuel' ... NO ! Besides, no proper >>> infrastructure for it.
For a 'motor fuel' it is difficult to replace the benefits of liquids
that do not need pressure vessels (beyond their own evaporation
pressure, which is usually quite mild). We have an entire setup in
place for transporting, storing, and dispensing liquids (gas/diesel
pumps).
But, to avoid more 'carbon' in the air, the liquids have to be
synthesized somehow from carbon already in the air. And that we don't
have on a scale large enough to be a source to replace our current
liquid fuels.
The catalyst people ARE getting better with grabbing
CO2 and turning it into various 'fuel' hydrocarbons
again. If there's hope for "CO2 Capture" it's with
these scientists.
They don't even HAVE to "break even" - just kinda
sorta CLOSE. That'd be significant - "good enough"
Again, as for 'motor fuel', I suggest isopropanol,
and it has a decent 'octane rating' - around 112.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-08, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your
AI's number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang". >>>>>> That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself explosively >>>>>> combusting as part of the pressure release.
I've seen the results of a 200-bar scuba tank letting go.
And that's just a little 80-cubic foot tank filled with air.
How did this happen? In sweden, there is an epidemic of bombings for the >>>> past couple of years, since crazy drug dealing arabians are waging some >>>> kind of war with hand grenades, and car battery bombs in the bigger
cities.
Would using scuba tanks be a cheaper way for them to bomb each other?
Likely not as cheap as a car battery. I see a 2.3L mini scuba tank on
Amazon for $299 (no idea how big a 2.3L mini tank really is). I can
get a car battery for about $100 at the local auto-store.
And the scuba tank will not also spray sulfuric acid over everyone when
it goes "bang". And short of an armor peircing slug, it is probably
more difficult to get a new scuba tank to go "bang" vs becoming a brief
high speed rocket or spinner.
Also, how does a car battery bomb work?
Perhaps google would answer your question... Or perhaps google would
report you to the authorities for even asking the question?
I did, and my conclusion was that a pipe bombs with gun powder would be
lighter, cheaper and more dangerous.
So that's why I ask you knowledgeable guys, since to me, it seems there
are _way_ better ways to cause mayhem than car battery bombs.
Maybe try over on "alt.terrorists.r.us" :)
Unless one of the lurkers is also playing in this field (and willing to
speak up) you'll likely get "I dunno" as the answer from the rest of
us. There's probably "some" reason, but you might have to infiltrate a
cell to actually find out, and when you did, the "reason" may seem
totally crazy in and of itself.
Very interesting! So safety then depends on excellent supply chain
management and quality control, coupled with perhaps changing the
containers early to avoid any possibility of leakage.
On 09/12/2024 20:51, D wrote:
I think it would be, yes.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If they had simply taxed carbon fuels we would be all nuclear by
now...and be making synthetic diesel
Is electricity the primary cost driver of synthetic diesel?
Lets say you can get to a 30% conversion ration of whatever energy drives the synthesis, to the final diesl.
Diesel and natural gas is around (UK money) 50p a litre or 5p /kWh
Expected renewable electricity is 3-4 times that
Historic nuclear is a bit less - say 4p /kWh
That puts synthetic diesel at a minimum of around 12p/kWh Which is what we pay at the pumps but that is all tax.
Germany managed to help the extreme left and the extreme right with their
ridiculous nuclear policy. Given their history, I'm surprised they didn't
see it coming. ;)
The trouble with Germany is that the Greens got into coalition, and the price of that was Germany's energy policy.
The problem seems to be that the broad political choice is between neo Marxists and pro Russian Neo Nazis.
On 09/12/2024 21:40, D wrote:
We currently do not have the technology, so it would be refreshing if the
EU socialist nobility could stop pissing away our money. But that's not
likely to happen any time soon. I am happy that the UK left, and I do hope >> that after Starmer has failed, that the UK can work to become the financial >> power house of the world again.
I read that Spain decided not to subsidise its windfarms as directed by the EU, as it was cheaper to pay the fine the EU imposed. Except they haven't paid that, either.
I think some other country did the same.
Germany has revoked Shengen. Not the EU. Finland and Sweden joined NATO.
Not the EU.
People are finding the EU is simply not as appropriate as individual nations behaving as if they were sovereign are letting the EU go fuck itself.
Euratom is the agency in charge of preventing new nuclear plants being built.
On 09/12/2024 20:50, D wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 09:53, D wrote:
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new, working >>>> nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
I'm not so sure.
At the moment Rolls Royce is going through the red tape box ticking
exercise on their reactors.
They want to deploy the first ones by 2030.
The Czech Republic is working with RR on this as well
There is a huge potential market for the first companies to put together >>> scalable small modular reactors that are in mass production.
Build your concrete structures, pop in a boiler and turbines and some
generators and ship a complete reactor in, and plug it in to a factory
produced control system, and that's it.
5 years top's is the aim
This is the government. No SMR:s in sight. They are thinking about "safe"
traditional ones.
If they get it done in 10 years, and if they dare to explore SMR:s, I will >> be happily proven wrong.
Sweden is small enough to be reasonably governed by people who don't get too puffed with self importance.
I think the salient points for Europe are:-
- Net Zero is pie in the sky. It ain't gonna happen.
- Renewable energy is pie in the sky, and massively expensive overall. It ain't gonna happen either.
- further reliance on fossil fuels is fraught with danger since by and large Western Europe doesnt have any.
- All the Nordic hydro is pretty much exploited as well as alpine and in the Iberian peninsula.
- All that is left is nuclear, and the point of SMR is to reduce build time and hence cost.
We have to use what fossil is left to bootsrtap the nuclear economy.
Note I didn't use the phrase 'climate change' anywhere above. It is *supremely irrelevant.'
The greater issue is the growing scarcity of fossil fuel
On 10/12/2024 01:02, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:53:54 +0100, D wrote:
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new, working
nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
If Sweden is like the US it will still be in litigation in 10 years.
Fortunately Sweden is not.
There seem to be (compared with the UK and US) people who can count beyond ten with their socks on in government
They are still singing the renewable hymn sheet but money is going into piloting nuclear power.
IIRC the majority of many European countries are now in principle not opposed to nuclear if the price is right.
And once one country goes nuclear, the rest will get lost in a crush to follow.
On 10/12/2024 13:34, D wrote:
I did, and my conclusion was that a pipe bombs with gun powder would beA bit, but gunpowder is by no means the best explosive.
lighter, cheaper and more dangerous.
Ammonium nitrate is way better.
As is nitroglyerine - although that is notoriuously unstable.
So that's why I ask you knowledgeable guys, since to me, it seems there are >> _way_ better ways to cause mayhem than car battery bombs.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:54 +0100, D wrote:
Very interesting! So safety then depends on excellent supply chain
management and quality control, coupled with perhaps changing the
containers early to avoid any possibility of leakage.
Yup... That will work until Suzie Suburban screws in the nozzle with a leaking i-ring, butt hanging from her lips.
On 09/12/2024 21:35, D wrote:
I could argue that solar is great in the sahara, but that does not make it >> feasible at scale, so bad example.
Not at night.
And, guess what, no one lives in the sahara. So what is the point?
On 10/12/2024 01:02, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:53:54 +0100, D wrote:
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new, working
nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
If Sweden is like the US it will still be in litigation in 10 years.
Fortunately Sweden is not.
There seem to be (compared with the UK and US) people who can count
beyond ten with their socks on in government
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 20:50, D wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 09:53, D wrote:
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new,
working nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
I'm not so sure.
At the moment Rolls Royce is going through the red tape box ticking
exercise on their reactors.
They want to deploy the first ones by 2030.
The Czech Republic is working with RR on this as well
There is a huge potential market for the first companies to put
together scalable small modular reactors that are in mass production.
Build your concrete structures, pop in a boiler and turbines and
some generators and ship a complete reactor in, and plug it in to a
factory produced control system, and that's it.
5 years top's is the aim
This is the government. No SMR:s in sight. They are thinking about
"safe" traditional ones.
If they get it done in 10 years, and if they dare to explore SMR:s, I
will be happily proven wrong.
Sweden is small enough to be reasonably governed by people who don't
get too puffed with self importance.
I think the salient points for Europe are:-
- Net Zero is pie in the sky. It ain't gonna happen.
- Renewable energy is pie in the sky, and massively expensive overall.
It ain't gonna happen either.
- further reliance on fossil fuels is fraught with danger since by
and large Western Europe doesnt have any.
- All the Nordic hydro is pretty much exploited as well as alpine and
in the Iberian peninsula.
- All that is left is nuclear, and the point of SMR is to reduce build
time and hence cost.
We have to use what fossil is left to bootsrtap the nuclear economy.
Note I didn't use the phrase 'climate change' anywhere above. It is
*supremely irrelevant.'
The greater issue is the growing scarcity of fossil fuel
Amen! But I don't think the fossil fuel scarcity is too much of a
problem, and that there's enough left for at least a generation or two.
But it won't be a big bang, plenty of technologies exist to bridge the gap.
Would be cool if I could finally have a nuclear powered car that I
bought full, and would never have to refuel. ;)
The socialist/eco-fascist deep state surely runs deep in sweden. But it
is a small country, so much easier to change and adapt than a big country.
On 2024-12-10, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 10/12/2024 01:02, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:53:54 +0100, D wrote:
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new, working >>>> nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
If Sweden is like the US it will still be in litigation in 10 years.
Fortunately Sweden is not.
There seem to be (compared with the UK and US) people who can count
beyond ten with their socks on in government
I think that when it comes to politicians, the appropriate phrase is
"can count to 21 with their fly zipped".
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:54 +0100, D wrote:
Very interesting! So safety then depends on excellent supply chain
management and quality control, coupled with perhaps changing the
containers early to avoid any possibility of leakage.
Yup... That will work until Suzie Suburban screws in the nozzle with a
leaking i-ring, butt hanging from her lips.
Gas station attendant to the rescue! Did you actually think you would be allowed to refill your own vehicle in the future? ;)
Gas station attendant to the rescue! Did you actually think you would be allowed to refill your own vehicle in the future?
The government owner power company at first refused to consider nuclear, since it was not economically feasible. The CEO was switftly removed by
the new government, or she was forcefully instructed behind closed doors (don't remember which actually) and all of a sudden they reluctantly
agreed to consider it.
On 10/12/2024 21:07, D wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:54 +0100, D wrote:
Very interesting! So safety then depends on excellent supply chain
management and quality control, coupled with perhaps changing the
containers early to avoid any possibility of leakage.
Yup... That will work until Suzie Suburban screws in the nozzle with a >>> leaking i-ring, butt hanging from her lips.
Gas station attendant to the rescue! Did you actually think you would be
allowed to refill your own vehicle in the future? ;)
Green job creation.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:07:32 +0100, D wrote:
Gas station attendant to the rescue! Did you actually think you would be
allowed to refill your own vehicle in the future?
There may be other states but Oregon is one where you can't pump your own gas. The exceptions are the counties in the very sparsely populated
eastern part of the state.
BREAKING NEWS:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2023/08/07/after-72-years-oregon- finally-legalizes-pumping-your-own-gas/
I haven't been in Oregon for quite a while and don't plan any trips. Even when the law was in effect if you were on a bike the attendant would look
the other way. There are laws then there is spilling gas on a Hells
Angel's custom painted gas tank.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/9/24 8:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 13:58:47 -0800, John Ames wrote:
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly*
more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything* else? >>>> Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more coherent/ >>>> relevant refresher course...
Feel free to start a thread.
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff' :-)
Was HOPING for discussion/insight into 'alternative'
schemes for 'CPU's and such derived from older solutions.
Houston, we have a problem .............
Your thread was perhaps not interesting enough? Try again! ;)
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 00:07:04 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
However to get good efficiency you couldn't burn the hydrogen - huge
FUEL CELLS would be required.
Even then, considerable loss.
It has infrastructure problems but Toyota's fuel cell vehicle is feasible. Excluding catastrophic tank failure I don't think hydrogen would be more
of a problem than propane.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 01:54:05 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff'
How about that bubble memory?
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:30:02 +0100, D wrote:
I guess it's the spirit of the age. Our elite politicians have lost
touch with the people and have pissed them off too much. The people
then, naturally, overreact. The rest of the chain of causation is left
as an exercise for the reader. ;)
But not a reader here, because you and your ilks' political missives
have fsck-all to do with Linux.
On 12/10/24 3:01 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 01:54:05 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff'
How about that bubble memory?
Fizzy !!! :-)
There may be modern updates - not magnetic bubbles but some kinds of
-ons or -ions. Functional equivs,
flash fakes it, but isn't that robust - and the ferroelectrics are
too low density.
On 07/12/2024 18:24, Rich wrote:
Nighttime is the big one. Until the world's electric grids areWhen I did all these calculations years ago the answer that came up
sufficiently interconnected that power generated in the Saraha Desert
at noon can be shipped to the other side of the world where it is dark
to supply power to that location there*must* be some storage, somehow,
to account for night/twilight/a run of 14+ overcast days/etc.
every time was 'nuclear is simply cheaper, more reliable, more self sufficient and in every way better'
And, even if the world's electric grid was interconnected sufficient to
ship solar power from Africa to the other side of the globe, we measly
humans would simply use those interconnnects to try to enforce
geopolitical rules on other locations we don't like by attempting to
deny them "night time power".
Or the Russians would cut the cable anyway, just for kicks.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 14:15:21 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I still do not know why you are talking this and not Linux in a Linux
group, but for your info, there are countries that sell more electric
cars than IC, so it works for them.
Desktop Linux works for many people including myself. However, Windows remains the dominant OS.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 00:45:06 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/10/24 3:01 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 01:54:05 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff'
How about that bubble memory?
Fizzy !!! :-)
There may be modern updates - not magnetic bubbles but some kinds of
-ons or -ions. Functional equivs,
flash fakes it, but isn't that robust - and the ferroelectrics are
too low density.
Somehow bit slice abd bubble memories are cataloged side by side in my
brain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PALM_processor
There is another golden oldie. The 5120 was a strange beast, selectable
for either BASIC or APL. It's successor, the System/23, had an 8085 rather than IBM's homebrew but had a similar look. Familiarity with the 8085 was
one of the factors for using the 8088.
What i never could figure out is the 5100, 5120, and 5120 were all the
PALM, whue the System/23 went to 53xx. Then they went back to 5150 for the
PC that had absolutely nothing in common with the 5120.
On 10/12/2024 20:17, D wrote:
I used to think so, but I think that the Arab states at least are very close to empty, and we don't want to buy Russian oil - the price is too high.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 20:50, D wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 09:53, D wrote:
Swedens government has now decided that sweden shall have new, working >>>>>> nuclear power in 10 years.
I would bet several hundred euros against this being done on time.
I'm not so sure.
At the moment Rolls Royce is going through the red tape box ticking
exercise on their reactors.
They want to deploy the first ones by 2030.
The Czech Republic is working with RR on this as well
There is a huge potential market for the first companies to put together >>>>> scalable small modular reactors that are in mass production.
Build your concrete structures, pop in a boiler and turbines and some >>>>> generators and ship a complete reactor in, and plug it in to a factory >>>>> produced control system, and that's it.
5 years top's is the aim
This is the government. No SMR:s in sight. They are thinking about "safe" >>>> traditional ones.
If they get it done in 10 years, and if they dare to explore SMR:s, I
will be happily proven wrong.
Sweden is small enough to be reasonably governed by people who don't get >>> too puffed with self importance.
I think the salient points for Europe are:-
- Net Zero is pie in the sky. It ain't gonna happen.
- Renewable energy is pie in the sky, and massively expensive overall. It >>> ain't gonna happen either.
- further reliance on fossil fuels is fraught with danger since by and >>> large Western Europe doesnt have any.
- All the Nordic hydro is pretty much exploited as well as alpine and in >>> the Iberian peninsula.
- All that is left is nuclear, and the point of SMR is to reduce build
time and hence cost.
We have to use what fossil is left to bootsrtap the nuclear economy.
Note I didn't use the phrase 'climate change' anywhere above. It is
*supremely irrelevant.'
The greater issue is the growing scarcity of fossil fuel
Amen! But I don't think the fossil fuel scarcity is too much of a problem, >> and that there's enough left for at least a generation or two.
But it won't be a big bang, plenty of technologies exist to bridge the gap. >>
Would be cool if I could finally have a nuclear powered car that I bought
full, and would never have to refuel. ;)
Its almost possible. The problem is all that lead makes it even heaver than a BEV and you have to stop to fill up the water just as often.
There is no device that turns heat into electricity better than a steam turbine, sadly.
On 10/12/2024 20:57, D wrote:
The socialist/eco-fascist deep state surely runs deep in sweden. But it is >> a small country, so much easier to change and adapt than a big country.
And that is the truth. One country will break first, everybody will watch and when all the companies and data centres start moving there to take advantage of cheap energy, the rest will follow like lemmings, and the EU will finally declare that nuclear energy is 'renewable' (let's face it the nuclear powered sun drives wind and solar) so it was always their intention etc blah blah blah.
On 10/12/2024 20:54, D wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 21:40, D wrote:
We currently do not have the technology, so it would be refreshing if the >>>> EU socialist nobility could stop pissing away our money. But that's not >>>> likely to happen any time soon. I am happy that the UK left, and I do
hope that after Starmer has failed, that the UK can work to become the >>>> financial power house of the world again.
I read that Spain decided not to subsidise its windfarms as directed by
the EU, as it was cheaper to pay the fine the EU imposed. Except they
haven't paid that, either.
I think some other country did the same.
Germany has revoked Shengen. Not the EU. Finland and Sweden joined NATO. >>> Not the EU.
People are finding the EU is simply not as appropriate as individual
nations behaving as if they were sovereign are letting the EU go fuck
itself.
Euratom is the agency in charge of preventing new nuclear plants being
built.
Yes, I think the EU will eventually collapse under its own weight. I'm just >> waiting for Orban or some other little dictator to break away, humiliating >> the EU even more.
Draghis "innovation report" was hilarious! The EU is falling behind in
innovation, what should we do? Surprise! The EU must invest billions in
green tech!
Oh my god. How do those guys ever reach those positions? =/
Bribery and corruption.
On 10/12/2024 21:07, D wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:22:54 +0100, D wrote:
Very interesting! So safety then depends on excellent supply chain
management and quality control, coupled with perhaps changing the
containers early to avoid any possibility of leakage.
Yup... That will work until Suzie Suburban screws in the nozzle with a >>> leaking i-ring, butt hanging from her lips.
Gas station attendant to the rescue! Did you actually think you would be
allowed to refill your own vehicle in the future? ;)
Green job creation.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:07:32 +0100, D wrote:
Gas station attendant to the rescue! Did you actually think you would be
allowed to refill your own vehicle in the future?
There may be other states but Oregon is one where you can't pump your own gas. The exceptions are the counties in the very sparsely populated
eastern part of the state.
BREAKING NEWS:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2023/08/07/after-72-years-oregon- finally-legalizes-pumping-your-own-gas/
I haven't been in Oregon for quite a while and don't plan any trips. Even when the law was in effect if you were on a bike the attendant would look
the other way. There are laws then there is spilling gas on a Hells
Angel's custom painted gas tank.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 21:57:36 +0100, D wrote:
The government owner power company at first refused to consider nuclear,
since it was not economically feasible. The CEO was switftly removed by
the new government, or she was forcefully instructed behind closed doors
(don't remember which actually) and all of a sudden they reluctantly
agreed to consider it.
That will be a hurdle in the US; quite a few nuclear plants were decommissioned because they proved to be economically unfeasible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancho_Seco_Nuclear_Generating_Station
There was great weeping when Rancho Seco shut down and SMUD had to restructure their generation capacity. That was replaced by sighs of
relief when SMUD realized they would have been destroyed by the energy deregulation fiasco.
On 12/10/24 8:38 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/9/24 8:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 13:58:47 -0800, John Ames wrote:
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly* >>>>> more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything* else? >>>>> Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more coherent/ >>>>> relevant refresher course...
Feel free to start a thread.
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff' :-)
Was HOPING for discussion/insight into 'alternative'
schemes for 'CPU's and such derived from older solutions.
Houston, we have a problem .............
Your thread was perhaps not interesting enough? Try again! ;)
Awwww .... OUGHT to be an interesting topic, especially
as we're bumping up against Moore's end-point. One or
two more gens and we're literally at the atomic scale ;
where to go from there ?
Better innovate SOMETHING, otherwise we're gonna see
'peak computing' when it's become clear we need thousands
of times that for the Really Cool Stuff.
On 12/9/24 7:56 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 14:15:21 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I still do not know why you are talking this and not Linux in a Linux
group, but for your info, there are countries that sell more electric
cars than IC, so it works for them.
Desktop Linux works for many people including myself. However, Windows
remains the dominant OS.
Dominant because of manipulative sales tactics - NOT merit.
Win is a MESS - a messy mess. At SOME point they're gonna
have to do like Apple and just FLUSH it - make a seem-alike
system on top of some kind of Unix.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:Yes. The equation relates power consumption, clock speed, and number of transitors to technology size.
On 12/10/24 8:38 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/9/24 8:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 13:58:47 -0800, John Ames wrote:
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly* >>>>>> more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything*
else?
Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more
coherent/
relevant refresher course...
Feel free to start a thread.
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff' :-)
Was HOPING for discussion/insight into 'alternative'
schemes for 'CPU's and such derived from older solutions.
Houston, we have a problem .............
Your thread was perhaps not interesting enough? Try again! ;)
Awwww .... OUGHT to be an interesting topic, especially
as we're bumping up against Moore's end-point. One or
two more gens and we're literally at the atomic scale ;
where to go from there ?
Quantum computing of course! Otherwise, we'll just continue to scale out
I assume.
Is there an established Moores end point?
I would imagine once we hit that end point in terms of regular cpus, the
only direction left would be purpose built cpus on other technologies
for niche use cases such as biological computing, quantum computing,
optical etc.
Could regular cpu:s get some extended life by a change of materials or
some other tweaks to the current design?
Well not peak computing, but a mature technology where chip typesBetter innovate SOMETHING, otherwise we're gonna see
'peak computing' when it's become clear we need thousands
of times that for the Really Cool Stuff.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 21:57:36 +0100, D wrote:
The government owner power company at first refused to consider nuclear, >>> since it was not economically feasible. The CEO was switftly removed by
the new government, or she was forcefully instructed behind closed doors >>> (don't remember which actually) and all of a sudden they reluctantly
agreed to consider it.
That will be a hurdle in the US; quite a few nuclear plants were
decommissioned because they proved to be economically unfeasible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancho_Seco_Nuclear_Generating_Station
There was great weeping when Rancho Seco shut down and SMUD had to
restructure their generation capacity. That was replaced by sighs of
relief when SMUD realized they would have been destroyed by the energy
deregulation fiasco.
Lo and behold... (or talking about the trolls, to imperfectly translate
a swedish saying...) from todays mainstream news on the topic of swedish nuclear:
"The planned new nuclear power reactors at Ringhals cannot be
accommodated. In any case, not if the nature reserve on the Väröhalvön
is to continue.
Would be cool if I could finally have a nuclear powered car that I
bought full, and would never have to refuel. 😉
Its almost possible. The problem is all that lead makes it even heaver
than a BEV and you have to stop to fill up the water just as often.
There is no device that turns heat into electricity better than a
steam turbine, sadly.
Sigh... ok, a ship then! 😉
Toyota never bought into BEVs and favored hybrids. The Mirai is impressive but it points out the problem at this time.
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/toyota-sued-over-lack-of- hydrogen-availability-for-fuel-cell-cars-in-california/2-1-1676965
"A class action lawsuit alleges false advertising and misrepresentation
over promises that H2 refuelling stations would be widely available"
Hydrogen will need a real PR campaign. A company I worked for had a
contract to produce the glass tubes for strobe lights. It was a glass
blowing operation to form the corkscrew shape. Soda glass can be worked
with oxy-acetylene but quartz glass needs a oxy-hydrogen flame. We had to
get a permit to have a hydrogen tube trailer spotted on the premises
despite hydrogen being safer than acetylene. I could see the fire marshall thinking 'bomb' when we said 'hydrogen'.
The tanks have improved. In the '70s the weight of hydrogen in a tube
trailer was ridiculously small compared to the wieght of the trailer. New materials reduce the tank weights and the DOT has increased the allowable pressure but it's still a transportation problem.
Then there is the problem that most hydrogen comes from processing natural gas rather than green alternative energy sources.
Sigh... ok, a ship then! 😉
Not only possible, has been done and is almost certainly the global
freight and possibly passenger transport of the future.
On 10/12/2024 13:34, D wrote:
I did, and my conclusion was that a pipe bombs with gun powder would beA bit, but gunpowder is by no means the best explosive.
lighter, cheaper and more dangerous.
Ammonium nitrate is way better.
As is nitroglyerine - although that is notoriuously unstable.
And once you create it, and pump it into the car's pressure tank
(you'll need a pressure vessel unless the car has a cryo-cooler on
board, and the energy expended by the cryo-cooler would dwarf the
energy needed to propel the car), you are right back to the
'embrittlement' problem again.
And consider the explosive force stored in a 350-700 bar (your
AI's number) pressure vessel that becomes brittle enough to go "bang".
That's one hell of a bang, even without the hydrogen itself explosively combusting as part of the pressure release.
Plus, the walls of the pressure vessel quite effectively become a 'fragmentation grenade' in the process of going bang.
Oregon now has legalized self-service gasoline
pumping state-wide. FINALLY!!!!! I have not heard recently
whether New Jersey might have also legalized it.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:07:32 +0100, D wrote:
Gas station attendant to the rescue! Did you actually think you
would be allowed to refill your own vehicle in the future?
There may be other states but Oregon is one where you can't pump your
own gas. The exceptions are the counties in the very sparsely
populated eastern part of the state.
BREAKING NEWS:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2023/08/07/after-72-years-oregon- finally-legalizes-pumping-your-own-gas/
I haven't been in Oregon for quite a while and don't plan any trips.
Even when the law was in effect if you were on a bike the attendant
would look the other way. There are laws then there is spilling gas
on a Hells Angel's custom painted gas tank.
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly*
more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything* else?
Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more coherent/ relevant refresher course...
On 11/12/2024 09:58, D wrote:
Would be cool if I could finally have a nuclear powered car that I bought >>>> full, and would never have to refuel. 😉
Its almost possible. The problem is all that lead makes it even heaver
than a BEV and you have to stop to fill up the water just as often.
There is no device that turns heat into electricity better than a steam
turbine, sadly.
Sigh... ok, a ship then! 😉
Not only possible, has been done and is almost certainly the global freight and possibly passenger transport of the future.
On 11/12/2024 10:06, D wrote:
...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 21:57:36 +0100, D wrote:
The government owner power company at first refused to consider nuclear, >>>> since it was not economically feasible. The CEO was switftly removed by >>>> the new government, or she was forcefully instructed behind closed doors >>>> (don't remember which actually) and all of a sudden they reluctantly
agreed to consider it.
That will be a hurdle in the US; quite a few nuclear plants were
decommissioned because they proved to be economically unfeasible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancho_Seco_Nuclear_Generating_Station
There was great weeping when Rancho Seco shut down and SMUD had to
restructure their generation capacity. That was replaced by sighs of
relief when SMUD realized they would have been destroyed by the energy
deregulation fiasco.
Lo and behold... (or talking about the trolls, to imperfectly translate a
swedish saying...) from todays mainstream news on the topic of swedish
nuclear:
"The planned new nuclear power reactors at Ringhals cannot be accommodated. >> In any case, not if the nature reserve on the Väröhalvön is to continue. >>
Sizewell nuclear power station is right next door to a major bird sanctuary (Minsmere)
It's due to have another big reactor built alongside.
You can cite that if you like... at any hearings.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/12/2024 09:58, D wrote:steam turbine, sadly.
Sigh... ok, a ship then! 😉
Not only possible, has been done and is almost certainly the global
freight and possibly passenger transport of the future.
Yes! It would be a shame of subs and aircraft carriers would be the only
ones to have this.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 10/12/2024 13:34, D wrote:
I did, and my conclusion was that a pipe bombs with gun powder would beA bit, but gunpowder is by no means the best explosive.
lighter, cheaper and more dangerous.
Ammonium nitrate is way better.
As is nitroglyerine - although that is notoriuously unstable.
True, and the precursor chemicals are likey on a 'watch for purchasers'
list somewhere, like a lot of otherwise useful chemicals from the past
are now. So if one starts buying up enough precursors, one likely ends
up with a visit from men in dark suits, wearing dark sunglasses, and
driving blackout windowed black SUV's.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 10/12/2024 13:34, D wrote:
I did, and my conclusion was that a pipe bombs with gun powder would be >>>> lighter, cheaper and more dangerous.A bit, but gunpowder is by no means the best explosive.
Ammonium nitrate is way better.
As is nitroglyerine - although that is notoriuously unstable.
True, and the precursor chemicals are likey on a 'watch for purchasers'
list somewhere, like a lot of otherwise useful chemicals from the past
are now. So if one starts buying up enough precursors, one likely ends
up with a visit from men in dark suits, wearing dark sunglasses, and
driving blackout windowed black SUV's.
This is the truth, but the chemicals for those are more difficult for me
to acquire. Coal is easy,
pesticide (don't remember exactly), and potassium nitrate can be bought
en masse in the form of stump remover (?). Easy as pie!
What I did not test was to buy some alcohol to purify the gun powder. I
also had bad quality coal as well, so that's something I would change
til next time.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 00:51:47 -0500
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Better innovate SOMETHING, otherwise we're gonna see 'peak computing'
when it's become clear we need thousands of times that for the Really
Cool Stuff.
I've long been of the opinion that things're gonna get Real Interesting
when Moore's Law finally his the wall and "throw a beefier rig at it!"
is no longer a viable pitch for any "your X isn't delivering Y fast
enough for project Z!" problems.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 00:07:04 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
However to get good efficiency you couldn't burn the hydrogen - huge
FUEL CELLS would be required.
Even then, considerable loss.
It has infrastructure problems but Toyota's fuel cell vehicle is feasible. Excluding catastrophic tank failure I don't think hydrogen would be more
of a problem than propane.
On 11/12/2024 16:17, D wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/12/2024 09:58, D wrote:steam turbine, sadly.
Sigh... ok, a ship then! 😉
Not only possible, has been done and is almost certainly the global
freight and possibly passenger transport of the future.
Yes! It would be a shame of subs and aircraft carriers would be the only
ones to have this.
There is an international group of shipping people looking into what stands in the way. Regulations mostly...
The economics are somewhat unclear. The rising cost of bunker oil has made cruising at lower speeds the optimal balance. With nuclear, uranium costs are negligible so full speed at whatever the weather will allow may be optimal leading to less ships being needed overall.
Probably a large container or cruise ship could top out at 50mph (80kph) or so. So something like a 3 day transatlantic crossing time.
I think that is very acceptable as part of a holiday package.
On 11/12/2024 16:20, D wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 10/12/2024 13:34, D wrote:
I did, and my conclusion was that a pipe bombs with gun powder would be >>>>> lighter, cheaper and more dangerous.A bit, but gunpowder is by no means the best explosive.
Ammonium nitrate is way better.
As is nitroglyerine - although that is notoriuously unstable.
True, and the precursor chemicals are likey on a 'watch for purchasers'
list somewhere, like a lot of otherwise useful chemicals from the past
are now. So if one starts buying up enough precursors, one likely ends >>> up with a visit from men in dark suits, wearing dark sunglasses, and
driving blackout windowed black SUV's.
This is the truth, but the chemicals for those are more difficult for me to >> acquire. Coal is easy,
Charcoal is even easier
I think I extracted sulfur from some kind of
pesticide (don't remember exactly), and potassium nitrate can be bought en >> masse in the form of stump remover (?). Easy as pie!Oh ho. Can it?
What I did not test was to buy some alcohol to purify the gun powder. I
also had bad quality coal as well, so that's something I would change til
next time.
Bribery and corruption.
How long have Intel been struggling with 7nm?
There is another golden oldie. The 5120 was a strange beast, selectable
for either BASIC or APL. It's successor, the System/23, had an 8085
rather than IBM's homebrew but had a similar look. Familiarity with the
8085 was one of the factors for using the 8088.
Umm ... 5120 came well after the 8088. Got yer numbers right ?
The 8085 was a pretty fair predecessor for the 8088 however. Not THAT
much diff. However, for the time,
the Z80 was maybe a tad better.
Would still like to get my hands on a working S-100 Z80 system .....
But I would be careful if I were you. Isn't oregon a democrat
stronghold?
It you go there and they find you out, you might not be able to leave.
Sizewell nuclear power station is right next door to a major bird
sanctuary (Minsmere)
It's due to have another big reactor built alongside.
Yes! Have a look at this:
https://weibulls.com/weibulls-stubborttagare-1-25kg-6st-krt-stubb-x
1.25 kg of potassium nitrate for about 30 EUR.
What I did not test was to buy some alcohol to purify the gun powder. I
also had bad quality coal as well, so that's something I would change
til next time.
Excluding catastrophic tank failure I don't think hydrogen would be
more of a problem than propane.
Typical propane tank pressure: 100-200psi [1]
Typical hydrogen tank pressure (for cars): 350 - 700bar which is 5,000 - 10,000 psi [2]
A 5k to 10k psi tank rupture will impart much more kinetic energy into
the shrapnel thrown off than a 100-200 psi tank rupture will impart. And
that ignores the impact of the pressure wave created by the
decompression of the stored gas itself.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/10/24 8:38 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/9/24 8:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 13:58:47 -0800, John Ames wrote:
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly* >>>>>> more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything*
else?
Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more
coherent/
relevant refresher course...
Feel free to start a thread.
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff' :-)
Was HOPING for discussion/insight into 'alternative'
schemes for 'CPU's and such derived from older solutions.
Houston, we have a problem .............
Your thread was perhaps not interesting enough? Try again! ;)
Awwww .... OUGHT to be an interesting topic, especially
as we're bumping up against Moore's end-point. One or
two more gens and we're literally at the atomic scale ;
where to go from there ?
Quantum computing of course! Otherwise, we'll just continue to scale out
I assume.
Is there an established Moores end point?
I would imagine once we hit that end point in terms of regular cpus, the
only direction left would be purpose built cpus on other technologies
for niche use cases such as biological computing, quantum computing,
optical etc.
Could regular cpu:s get some extended life by a change of materials or
some other tweaks to the current design?
Better innovate SOMETHING, otherwise we're gonna see
'peak computing' when it's become clear we need thousands
of times that for the Really Cool Stuff.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:04:24 +0100, D wrote:
But I would be careful if I were you. Isn't oregon a democrat
stronghold?
It you go there and they find you out, you might not be able to leave.
It depends... There is an invisible line running down the Cascade range; west of it brains turn to mush. There is a fairly serious movement for the area east of the range to secede and join Idaho.
https://www.greateridaho.org/
A better representation from the recent election:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_Oregon
Like the rest of the US the large urban centers are Democratic. Go global warming. Say a 30' rise in the sea level and the people of Portland,
Seattle, NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, LA, and so forth will be too busy swimming to vote.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 03:50:32 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
There is another golden oldie. The 5120 was a strange beast, selectable
for either BASIC or APL. It's successor, the System/23, had an 8085
rather than IBM's homebrew but had a similar look. Familiarity with the
8085 was one of the factors for using the 8088.
Umm ... 5120 came well after the 8088. Got yer numbers right ?
The 8085 was a pretty fair predecessor for the 8088 however. Not THAT
much diff. However, for the time,
the Z80 was maybe a tad better.
Would still like to get my hands on a working S-100 Z80 system .....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_5120
Technically the 8088 processor was released in '79 while the 5120 was released in Feb '80. The System/23 with the 8085 was released in July
'81. The 5150 PC was released in August 1981 more than a year after the
5120. The 5100 itself was released in '75, and the 5110 in '78. Same PALM processor throughout. The 5110 had more I/O like floppy interfaces, while
the 5120 had a larger screen and 2 built in 8" floppies.
The company I worked for bought the 5120 and I created an inventory
control system on it but my personal machine at the time was an Osborne 1 CP/M 'portable' that I bought in April '81. I don't remember when I got around to buying a PC clone, maybe '84? It was one of the brand x mystery boxes with the turbo switch.
On 11/12/2024 16:43, John Ames wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 00:51:47 -0500We have already hit it.
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Better innovate SOMETHING, otherwise we're gonna see 'peak computing'
when it's become clear we need thousands of times that for the Really
Cool Stuff.
I've long been of the opinion that things're gonna get Real Interesting
when Moore's Law finally his the wall and "throw a beefier rig at it!"
is no longer a viable pitch for any "your X isn't delivering Y fast
enough for project Z!" problems.
Hence the proliferation of multiple cores.
Which works for multi-user and multi-threaded operations, but not
necessarily for linear single thread code.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/9/24 7:56 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 14:15:21 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I still do not know why you are talking this and not Linux in a Linux
group, but for your info, there are countries that sell more electric
cars than IC, so it works for them.
Desktop Linux works for many people including myself. However, Windows
remains the dominant OS.
Dominant because of manipulative sales tactics - NOT merit.
Win is a MESS - a messy mess. At SOME point they're gonna
have to do like Apple and just FLUSH it - make a seem-alike
system on top of some kind of Unix.
Also note that due to Apple, chromebooks and linux, windows has been
losing market share, although very, very slowly.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 20:51, D wrote:
I think it would be, yes.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If they had simply taxed carbon fuels we would be all nuclear by
now...and be making synthetic diesel
Is electricity the primary cost driver of synthetic diesel?
Lets say you can get to a 30% conversion ration of whatever energy
drives the synthesis, to the final diesl.
Diesel and natural gas is around (UK money) 50p a litre or 5p /kWh
Expected renewable electricity is 3-4 times that
Historic nuclear is a bit less - say 4p /kWh
That puts synthetic diesel at a minimum of around 12p/kWh Which is
what we pay at the pumps but that is all tax.
Ahh, yet another thing we don't have to worry about then. =)
Germany managed to help the extreme left and the extreme right with
their ridiculous nuclear policy. Given their history, I'm surprised
they didn't see it coming. ;)
The trouble with Germany is that the Greens got into coalition, and
the price of that was Germany's energy policy.
The problem seems to be that the broad political choice is between neo
Marxists and pro Russian Neo Nazis.
Yes!
Suggested edit: "west of it many/most brains turn to mush."
There are a few right-minded thinkers west of the Cascades.
Didn't the 5120s have like a REALLY dinky monitor ?
I've used an Osbourne and the competing Kaypro. For the era, they
really weren't bad. The 8088 more smoothly accessed larger RAM space
however, so it became the worthy successor. 64/128k became obsolete
REAL quick.
I've got a ZX81 around somewhere, but those were 'toys'.
Still, always wanted my own S-100 box, but could never afford one
while they were still in use. I think they were still made even for
the 68000, maybe 68020, but the buss wasn't meant for the higher
clocks that soon became prevalent and it became so easy to put the
periphs into ONE CHIP that there really wasn't the need for 8/10/12
slot computers anymore.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 11:04:24 +0100, D wrote:
But I would be careful if I were you. Isn't oregon a democrat
stronghold?
It you go there and they find you out, you might not be able to leave.
It depends... There is an invisible line running down the Cascade range; west of it brains turn to mush. There is a fairly serious movement for the area east of the range to secede and join Idaho.
https://www.greateridaho.org/
A better representation from the recent election:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 2024_United_States_presidential_election_in_Oregon
Like the rest of the US the large urban centers are Democratic. Go global warming. Say a 30' rise in the sea level and the people of Portland,
Seattle, NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, LA, and so forth will be too busy swimming to vote.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 22:26:29 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Didn't the 5120s have like a REALLY dinky monitor ?
The 5100 and 5110 did. They were meant to be 'portable'. The 5120 bumped
it up to a magnificent 9". It was bigger than the Osborne 1 monitor. Like
a laptop if I was at home I plugged it into an external monitor. I sent it back to the factory for the 100 column upgrade and the massive storage of double sided, double density floppies. It paid for itself many times over.
I even build a EPROM programmer using the parallel port. It had just
enough lines to put out the data and toggle the necessary lines.
I've used an Osbourne and the competing Kaypro. For the era, they
really weren't bad. The 8088 more smoothly accessed larger RAM space
however, so it became the worthy successor. 64/128k became obsolete
REAL quick.
You could already get more memory for a Z80 using bank switching. iirc the bottom 2K was reserved to do the switch. The 8088 just formalized it on
the chip. The best part was the five different libraries for the tiny,
small, medium, large, and huge memory schemes or whatever they were
called.
I've got a ZX81 around somewhere, but those were 'toys'.
I had a ZX80 that I bought in the kit form. I was already using the Z80
for embedded stuff and was curious what $100, iirc, would buy.
Still, always wanted my own S-100 box, but could never afford one
while they were still in use. I think they were still made even for
the 68000, maybe 68020, but the buss wasn't meant for the higher
clocks that soon became prevalent and it became so easy to put the
periphs into ONE CHIP that there really wasn't the need for 8/10/12
slot computers anymore.
I never had a S-100 but I designed a set of cards and a proprietary
backplane for a client with a real case of NIH. There were a bunch of them
in the industrial field including the STD Bus, which was anything but standard. Everybody rolled their own.
The rumor was the S-100 came about when someone got a hell of a deal on milsurp edge connectors.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:20:37 +0100, D wrote:
What I did not test was to buy some alcohol to purify the gun powder. I
also had bad quality coal as well, so that's something I would change
til next time.
Sourcing the potassium nitrate and sulfur was no problem in the '50s but trying to grind down charcoal was a miserable task. During one of the
times in grade school chemistry class when I wasn't daydreaming I learned
the formula for sucrose was C12H22O11. Hmmm, that looks like a lot of
carbon and stuff that should turn into water vapor. Rocket candy was born!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_candy
It was many years later I found out about it. It wasn't much of an
explosive but back then dry gas came in about a 12 ounce can with a
conical top that necked down to a screw cap. Filling one of those and lighting it lead to a very satisfactory fountain of flame. I never thought
to try launching a rocket with it.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 21:59:20 +0100, D wrote:
Yes! Have a look at this:
https://weibulls.com/weibulls-stubborttagare-1-25kg-6st-krt-stubb-x
1.25 kg of potassium nitrate for about 30 EUR.
Amazon has 5 pounds for USD 27.98, free delivery. Speaking from experience
it sucks as a stump remover. You're supposed to drill holes, pour the solution in, wait a few weeks, and set fire to the stump. Good luck with that.
On 12/11/24 5:08 AM, D wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/10/24 8:38 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/9/24 8:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 13:58:47 -0800, John Ames wrote:
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly* >>>>>>> more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything* >>>>>>> else?
Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more
coherent/
relevant refresher course...
Feel free to start a thread.
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff' :-)
Was HOPING for discussion/insight into 'alternative'
schemes for 'CPU's and such derived from older solutions.
Houston, we have a problem .............
Your thread was perhaps not interesting enough? Try again! ;)
Awwww .... OUGHT to be an interesting topic, especially
as we're bumping up against Moore's end-point. One or
two more gens and we're literally at the atomic scale ;
where to go from there ?
Quantum computing of course! Otherwise, we'll just continue to scale out I >> assume.
"Quantum" has NOT been going well. People are finding
ways to REDUCE the error rate, but it's still too much.
Cyro is also kinda required.
Is there an established Moores end point?
I'm gonna say it's "at the few atoms" zone. However
you still need to make room for the connecting leads.
Gotta be able to FAB such things too ... and you're
well into the X-ray zone there.
So ... I think we're approaching A Problem here.
The kind/meaning of 'computing' has kinda shifted
recently due to 'AI' - Nvidia rules there - but
the chips are faster at "AI" sorts of stuff, not
general/all-purpose.
I would imagine once we hit that end point in terms of regular cpus, the
only direction left would be purpose built cpus on other technologies for
niche use cases such as biological computing, quantum computing, optical
etc.
Bio is gonna be too SLOW. Quantum, we've discussed that.
Pure photonic - including some rough analog of photonic
transistors ... MAYbe. I keep hearing bits of news which
suggest those MIGHT be practical someday. Still, don't
see them being THAT much faster - the S-o-L in crystals
and fiber and such is a limiting factor. Who'd have ever
imagined the S-o-L would be TOO SLOW eh ? Indeed it's
already a communications pain in the ass.
Photonic switching elements don't switch instantly
either ... MAYbe some different def/tech that's not
really so much 'switching' per-se ? Interference
patterns ?
Now something that will properly support, say, deca-state
logic ... ? Transistors don't do that well, but smart
photonic design, perhaps. A lot more 'getting it done'
per gigahertz :-)
Could regular cpu:s get some extended life by a change of materials or some >> other tweaks to the current design?
Could ... but instead they'll make new chips.
Oh, news today ... if you have an AMD box DO look into
the "BadRAM" exploit - a sneaky back-door way for Vlad
to spy on your 'protected' data.
Better innovate SOMETHING, otherwise we're gonna see
'peak computing' when it's become clear we need thousands
of times that for the Really Cool Stuff.
On 12/10/24 3:19 PM, D wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/12/2024 20:51, D wrote:
I think it would be, yes.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
If they had simply taxed carbon fuels we would be all nuclear by
now...and be making synthetic diesel
Is electricity the primary cost driver of synthetic diesel?
Lets say you can get to a 30% conversion ration of whatever energy drives >>> the synthesis, to the final diesl.
Diesel and natural gas is around (UK money) 50p a litre or 5p /kWh
Expected renewable electricity is 3-4 times that
Historic nuclear is a bit less - say 4p /kWh
That puts synthetic diesel at a minimum of around 12p/kWh Which is what we >>> pay at the pumps but that is all tax.
Ahh, yet another thing we don't have to worry about then. =)
Germany managed to help the extreme left and the extreme right with their >>>> ridiculous nuclear policy. Given their history, I'm surprised they didn't >>>> see it coming. ;)
The trouble with Germany is that the Greens got into coalition, and the
price of that was Germany's energy policy.
The problem seems to be that the broad political choice is between neo
Marxists and pro Russian Neo Nazis.
Yes!
Germany seems SCREWED - all ideology, no common sense.
Alas it's a HUGE economy .....
For now.
On 12 Dec 2024 04:06:10 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
Suggested edit: "west of it many/most brains turn to mush."
There are a few right-minded thinkers west of the Cascades.
Sure. My ex is somewhat to the right of me and lives in New York City.
It's a lonely life and she has alienated more than one 'friend'.
There was a far right author who wrote a few novels about a Northwest Territorial Imperative. He realized that a landlocked area of Montana,
Idaho, Nevada, and a few other states wasn't feasible and worked in ways
to capture the seaboard. They all seemed very optimistic.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 10:35:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
How long have Intel been struggling with 7nm?
It would be wonderful if '7nm' referred to some real dimension.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16823/intel-accelerated-offensive-process- roadmap-updates-to-10nm-7nm-4nm-3nm-20a-18a-packaging-foundry-emib-foveros
"It is no secret that having "Intel 10nm" being equivalent to "TSMC 7nm", even though the numbers actually have nothing to do with the physical implementation, has ground at Intel for a while. A lot of the industry,
for whatever reason, hasn’t learned that these numbers aren’t actually a physical measurement. They used to be, but when we moved from 2D planar transistors to 3D FinFET transistors, the numbers became nothing more than
a marketing tool. Despite this, every time there’s an article about the technology, people get confused. We’ve been talking about it for half a decade, but the confusion still remains."
The full article is worth reading.
Like the rest of the US the large urban centers are Democratic. Go global warming. Say a 30' rise in the sea level and the people of Portland,
Seattle, NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, LA, and so forth will be too busy swimming to vote.
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
There is an international group of shipping people looking into what
stands in the way. Regulations mostly...
The economics are somewhat unclear. The rising cost of bunker oil has
made cruising at lower speeds the optimal balance. With nuclear,
uranium costs are negligible so full speed at whatever the weather
will allow may be optimal leading to less ships being needed overall.
Probably a large container or cruise ship could top out at 50mph
(80kph) or so. So something like a 3 day transatlantic crossing time.
I think that is very acceptable as part of a holiday package.
It is fascinating how ancient these ideas really are. By pure chance, I
once found an old family history in my fathers apartment typed up by my grandmother.
Apparently, together with those papers, where some old notes from her
job. She used to be the secretary to some scientist at swedens first
nuclear research program around 1954.
In those notes, I read speculations about nuclear powered ships and I
think they mentioned aircraft, but ships for sure.
Massive organizations can do a lot wrong, and still survive a long time.
My fear is that they are repeating the errors that led up to ww2. They
are crushing the middle class with taxes and eco-fascist policies and inflation.
A far-right agitator will popup (hello AfD!) and say, vote for me and
all will be well. Since there's literally no other alternative, the
middle class will do it, and then it could become dangerous.
On 12/12/2024 09:52, D wrote:
Massive organizations can do a lot wrong, and still survive a long time. My >> fear is that they are repeating the errors that led up to ww2. They are
crushing the middle class with taxes and eco-fascist policies and
inflation.
There is an aphorism that a large company only has to get one chance in twenty right to survive, but a small company cannot afford to get more than one in twenty chances wrong or it goes under.
A far-right agitator will popup (hello AfD!) and say, vote for me and all
will be well. Since there's literally no other alternative, the middle
class will do it, and then it could become dangerous.
Yes. It's alarming to think that at the time Adolf was seen as the best of a bad lot.
But once they let him in, they were stuck with him.
But by the mid 1970s they had become competitive with the rise in fuel prices, and today's level of computer systems and long range networking would probably result in just a couple of people to manage any routine issues on the power plant and satellite comms back to the nuclear power plant builder to tell them what to do if anything went outside operational norms
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
But by the mid 1970s they had become competitive with the rise in fuel
prices, and today's level of computer systems and long range
networking would probably result in just a couple of people to manage
any routine issues on the power plant and satellite comms back to the
nuclear power plant builder to tell them what to do if anything went
outside operational norms
I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships? A reactor
that is preloaded and welded shut. Then it operates for its entire lifetime until the fuel is used up, and then you change to a new reactor.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:20:37 +0100, D wrote:
What I did not test was to buy some alcohol to purify the gun powder. I
also had bad quality coal as well, so that's something I would change
til next time.
Sourcing the potassium nitrate and sulfur was no problem in the '50s but
trying to grind down charcoal was a miserable task. During one of the
times in grade school chemistry class when I wasn't daydreaming I learned
the formula for sucrose was C12H22O11. Hmmm, that looks like a lot of
carbon and stuff that should turn into water vapor. Rocket candy was born! >>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_candy
It was many years later I found out about it. It wasn't much of an
explosive but back then dry gas came in about a 12 ounce can with a
conical top that necked down to a screw cap. Filling one of those and
lighting it lead to a very satisfactory fountain of flame. I never thought >> to try launching a rocket with it.
Ah... childhood memories! This was the easiest thing in the world to
produce! Once I managed to stop a subway line with it. I think I was
around 12 or 13, and we were playing with this stuff under a bridge that
had a subway line.
The subway came, created a draft that sucked all the smoke into the
tunnel, and they thought there was a fire and stopped the subway. 10
minutes later the police arrived, discovered us (we didn't run) and said "boys will be boys" and let us go.
I thought the police actually thought it was funny and were reminded of
their own childhood (although of course they didn't show any of this).
Ahh, those were better, more innocent times!
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On 12 Dec 2024 04:06:10 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
Suggested edit: "west of it many/most brains turn to mush."
There are a few right-minded thinkers west of the Cascades.
Sure. My ex is somewhat to the right of me and lives in New York City.
It's a lonely life and she has alienated more than one 'friend'.
Oh well, then they weren't friends in the first place. A friend can
tolerate differences of opinion. If they cannot, they are not worth
having around.
Which is why the tendency today is to stick to around 3-4GHz clocks but
add more cores and local cache RAM , and security risk style predictive branches.
On 12/12/2024 15:13, D wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
But by the mid 1970s they had become competitive with the rise in fuel
prices, and today's level of computer systems and long range networking
would probably result in just a couple of people to manage any routine
issues on the power plant and satellite comms back to the nuclear power
plant builder to tell them what to do if anything went outside operational >>> norms
I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships? A
reactor
that is preloaded and welded shut. Then it operates for its entire lifetime >> until the fuel is used up, and then you change to a new reactor.
They could use a multitude of things and probably will.
Currently what you suggest is probably what they would have - a sealed PWR with a throttle on the side and two pipes for primary circuit water.
And an OBDC port :-)
Currently big ships would expect to use 50-70MW. That isn't big, but it's not small either.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 17:20:37 +0100, D wrote:
What I did not test was to buy some alcohol to purify the gun powder. I >>>> also had bad quality coal as well, so that's something I would change
til next time.
Sourcing the potassium nitrate and sulfur was no problem in the '50s but >>> trying to grind down charcoal was a miserable task. During one of the
times in grade school chemistry class when I wasn't daydreaming I learned >>> the formula for sucrose was C12H22O11. Hmmm, that looks like a lot of
carbon and stuff that should turn into water vapor. Rocket candy was born! >>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_candy
It was many years later I found out about it. It wasn't much of an
explosive but back then dry gas came in about a 12 ounce can with a
conical top that necked down to a screw cap. Filling one of those and
lighting it lead to a very satisfactory fountain of flame. I never thought >>> to try launching a rocket with it.
Ah... childhood memories! This was the easiest thing in the world to
produce! Once I managed to stop a subway line with it. I think I was
around 12 or 13, and we were playing with this stuff under a bridge that
had a subway line.
The subway came, created a draft that sucked all the smoke into the
tunnel, and they thought there was a fire and stopped the subway. 10
minutes later the police arrived, discovered us (we didn't run) and said
"boys will be boys" and let us go.
I thought the police actually thought it was funny and were reminded of
their own childhood (although of course they didn't show any of this).
Ahh, those were better, more innocent times!
Yes indeed. Today some kids doing the identical activity would pull in
the local police, the FBI, the TSA, and likely several other three-letter-agencies and the kids would be put on several terrorist in
the making watchlists and be haunted by that label for the rest of
their lives.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:53:56 +0100, D wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On 12 Dec 2024 04:06:10 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
Suggested edit: "west of it many/most brains turn to mush."
There are a few right-minded thinkers west of the Cascades.
Sure. My ex is somewhat to the right of me and lives in New York City.
It's a lonely life and she has alienated more than one 'friend'.
Oh well, then they weren't friends in the first place. A friend can
tolerate differences of opinion. If they cannot, they are not worth
having around.
She is a Christian of some sort and I tread carefully when she veers in
that direction. Considering I've known her for about 60 years I know the pitfalls.
I think the "formalized" bit - plus the IBM name - kinda sealed it
for the Z80s. Bank-switching on Z80's was kinda too clunky - and all
the banks were 64k.
Anyway, won't really diss the 8088 ... had it's good time and place
and uses and paved the way to Better.
EVER see an actual 8086 system ? I never did. Kinda had to wait for
the 286/386 era to see the promised perks. I think Compaq had an
8086.
As a small business owner, I say... this is the truth! It is absolutely incredible the shit big companies can do, and still survive and thrive!
Wonder how fast, with modern techniques, you could
REALLY make a Z80 ? Could prob fit a bunch on a
single die ....
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
But by the mid 1970s they had become competitive with the rise in fuel
prices, and today's level of computer systems and long range networking would
probably result in just a couple of people to manage any routine issues on >> the power plant and satellite comms back to the nuclear power plant builder >> to tell them what to do if anything went outside operational norms
I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships? A reactor
that is preloaded and welded shut.
I thought the police actually thought it was funny and were reminded of
their own childhood (although of course they didn't show any of this).
Ahh, those were better, more innocent times!
On 10/12/2024 20:17, D wrote:
But it won't be a big bang, plenty of technologies exist to bridge the gap. >>
Would be cool if I could finally have a nuclear powered car that I
bought full, and would never have to refuel. ;)
Its almost possible. The problem is all that lead makes it even heaver
than a BEV and you have to stop to fill up the water just as often.
There is no device that turns heat into electricity better than a steam turbine, sadly.
Sulfur is a bit more difficult to get though. I think it is on some kind
of "watch list" where you need a license or a specific reason to buy it.
=(
Wow, that's quite a different between the easter and western parts. Yes!
A potential benefit of "global warming" all democrats will be washed
away.
Nuclear ships were in fact tried, but the economics and regulations made
them not cost effective. At the time. The rather larger number of
expensive 'nuclear engineers' required was a dominant factor.
Try the IBM "portable" PC ... if you don't throw out
yer back lifting it :-) DID use one - but did most of
the software on a 286 box.
EVER see an actual 8086 system ? I never did. Kinda
had to wait for the 286/386 era to see the promised
perks. I think Compaq had an 8086.
I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships? A reactor
that is preloaded and welded shut. Then it operates for its entire lifetime until the fuel is used up, and then you change to a new reactor.
Ah, what was that show, "Red Dwarf", where the spaceship
computer lamented that he'd tried to date a Zed-X 80 but
she just didn't get him :-)
Some of the later Tandy 1000 series did as well, before they eventually pivoted from being a vastly improved PCjr to being Yet Another VGA 386.
True. My jokes about feminism and the unequality of men and women
sometimes lands me in dangerous territory with my wife. She is a lawyer!
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/11/24 5:08 AM, D wrote:
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/10/24 8:38 AM, D wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/9/24 8:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 13:58:47 -0800, John Ames wrote:
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even
*slightly*
more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like,
*anything* else?
Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more
coherent/
relevant refresher course...
Feel free to start a thread.
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff' :-)
Was HOPING for discussion/insight into 'alternative'
schemes for 'CPU's and such derived from older solutions.
Houston, we have a problem .............
Your thread was perhaps not interesting enough? Try again! ;)
Awwww .... OUGHT to be an interesting topic, especially
as we're bumping up against Moore's end-point. One or
two more gens and we're literally at the atomic scale ;
where to go from there ?
Quantum computing of course! Otherwise, we'll just continue to scale
out I assume.
"Quantum" has NOT been going well. People are finding
ways to REDUCE the error rate, but it's still too much.
Cyro is also kinda required.
The thing that puts me off quantum is that media loves to hype it. That
to me, is a sign that it is nowhere near being ready for anything
productive. But I am not a physicist! But based on this group it does
seem I am more right than wrong.
Is there an established Moores end point?
I'm gonna say it's "at the few atoms" zone. However
you still need to make room for the connecting leads.
Gotta be able to FAB such things too ... and you're
well into the X-ray zone there.
So ... I think we're approaching A Problem here.
The kind/meaning of 'computing' has kinda shifted
recently due to 'AI' - Nvidia rules there - but
the chips are faster at "AI" sorts of stuff, not
general/all-purpose.
I would imagine once we hit that end point in terms of regular cpus,
the only direction left would be purpose built cpus on other
technologies for niche use cases such as biological computing,
quantum computing, optical etc.
Bio is gonna be too SLOW. Quantum, we've discussed that.
Isn't the idea behind bio massiev parallelism? So yes, the computation
might be slow, but if you have millions of molecules performing it in parallel you do get fantastic results if the problem you are trying to
solve fits the nature of bio computing?
Pure photonic - including some rough analog of photonic
transistors ... MAYbe. I keep hearing bits of news which
suggest those MIGHT be practical someday. Still, don't
see them being THAT much faster - the S-o-L in crystals
and fiber and such is a limiting factor. Who'd have ever
imagined the S-o-L would be TOO SLOW eh ? Indeed it's
already a communications pain in the ass.
Photonic switching elements don't switch instantly
either ... MAYbe some different def/tech that's not
really so much 'switching' per-se ? Interference
patterns ?
Now something that will properly support, say, deca-state
logic ... ? Transistors don't do that well, but smart
photonic design, perhaps. A lot more 'getting it done'
per gigahertz :-)
Seems like photonic is the winner for the moment.
Could regular cpu:s get some extended life by a change of materials
or some other tweaks to the current design?
Could ... but instead they'll make new chips.
Oh, news today ... if you have an AMD box DO look into
the "BadRAM" exploit - a sneaky back-door way for Vlad
to spy on your 'protected' data.
Better innovate SOMETHING, otherwise we're gonna see
'peak computing' when it's become clear we need thousands
of times that for the Really Cool Stuff.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 16:14:48 +0100, D wrote:
As a small business owner, I say... this is the truth! It is absolutely
incredible the shit big companies can do, and still survive and thrive!
That's a discussion I had with the company president several times. One of the VPs was always chasing the big sales. My argument was a company like Lockheed Martin could win the bid, fuck it up completely, get sued, and
shrug it off; we couldn't.
That came to realization when Lockheed won the bid for an emergency
dispatch system for the City of London. They failed to deliver, were sued
for breach of contract and non-performance, and went on to their next
scam.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 01:54:05 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff'
How about that bubble memory?
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:33:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Nuclear ships were in fact tried, but the economics and regulations made
them not cost effective. At the time. The rather larger number of
expensive 'nuclear engineers' required was a dominant factor.
Nuclear subs had advantages and war toys aren't subject to economics. A friend served on a nuke. His comment on the experience was Holy Loch, Scotland was the only place in the world that could make being submerged
for up to three months look good.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:23:53 +0100, D wrote:
Wow, that's quite a different between the easter and western parts. Yes!
A potential benefit of "global warming" all democrats will be washed
away.
Quite typical for the US. Many in upstate New York wish that Sodom on the Hudson would break off and float out to sea and western Massachusetts
feels the same about Boston.
Note the large uptick in seismic activity, esp along the Pacific rim,
the past couple of years. More and more, and stronger and stronger,
quakes. It is NOT impossible to get a giant tsunami that washes away
the US west coast ... the geologists have seem signs of those
happening before.
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 01:54:05 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff'
How about that bubble memory?
What I recall was all the hype about how bubble memory was going to
surpass everything else and the shift was "just around the corner".
Thirty years later and few even remember "bubble memoriess" were ever a thing.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:27:58 +0100, D wrote:
I thought the police actually thought it was funny and were reminded of
their own childhood (although of course they didn't show any of this).
Ahh, those were better, more innocent times!
It didn't come to fruition but I hatched a plan to brew up a batch of thermite and weld a draw bridge closed. I doubt anyone would have found it funny.
Being the '60s there was a radiation monitor on the roof od the high
school. The scheme was to somehow acquire some radioactive material from
the college lab and seed it. We got as far as acquiring the keys necessary for roof access but grabbing a hot sample didn't work out.
It was only three stories but there was an elevator with keyed access for
the faculty and handicapped students. The idea was to get the key, hit the emergency stop at a location when we could manually open the door and
slither out from the partial opening. That one worked.
Note the large uptick in seismic activity, esp along
the Pacific rim, the past couple of years. More and
more, and stronger and stronger, quakes. It is NOT
impossible to get a giant tsunami that washes away
the US west coast ... the geologists have seem signs
of those happening before.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
But by the mid 1970s they had become competitive with the rise in fuel
prices, and today's level of computer systems and long range networking would
probably result in just a couple of people to manage any routine issues on >>> the power plant and satellite comms back to the nuclear power plant builder >>> to tell them what to do if anything went outside operational norms
I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships? A reactor
that is preloaded and welded shut.
Yes, and the reactor model for ships is basically the model for SMR start-ups, except with the vague idea that they're suddenly going
to be much cheaper somehow (I'll believe it when they "hit the
shelves").
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 16:14:48 +0100, D wrote:
As a small business owner, I say... this is the truth! It is absolutely
incredible the shit big companies can do, and still survive and thrive!
That's a discussion I had with the company president several times. One of the VPs was always chasing the big sales. My argument was a company like Lockheed Martin could win the bid, fuck it up completely, get sued, and
shrug it off; we couldn't.
That came to realization when Lockheed won the bid for an emergency
dispatch system for the City of London. They failed to deliver, were sued
for breach of contract and non-performance, and went on to their next
scam.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:23:53 +0100, D wrote:
Wow, that's quite a different between the easter and western parts. Yes!
A potential benefit of "global warming" all democrats will be washed
away.
Quite typical for the US. Many in upstate New York wish that Sodom on the Hudson would break off and float out to sea and western Massachusetts
feels the same about Boston.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:32:11 +0100, D wrote:
Sulfur is a bit more difficult to get though. I think it is on some kind
of "watch list" where you need a license or a specific reason to buy it.
=(
Amazon to the rescue, at least in the US. 5 pounds for USD 25.65. However
if I use the Tor exit point in the Netherlands it says it can't be shipped
to my address.
Europeans can't have any fun at all, can they?
On 2024-12-12, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships? A reactor
that is preloaded and welded shut. Then it operates for its entire lifetime >> until the fuel is used up, and then you change to a new reactor.
That is sort of the model used on the submarines ... and on the NS
Savannah in the early 1960s. From what I have read, it could be
commercially viable today (with the improvements in relevant technology
in the last 60 years).
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 21:34:04 +0100, D wrote:
True. My jokes about feminism and the unequality of men and women
sometimes lands me in dangerous territory with my wife. She is a lawyer!
My wife became more religious after the divorce. About 20 years after the
fact she said if she'd followed Paul's advice for women to sit down, shut
up, and follow their husband's lead it might have worked out better. I
didn't pursue the thought.
On 12/12/24 4:01 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 10:33:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Nuclear ships were in fact tried, but the economics and regulations made >>> them not cost effective. At the time. The rather larger number of
expensive 'nuclear engineers' required was a dominant factor.
Nuclear subs had advantages and war toys aren't subject to economics. A
friend served on a nuke. His comment on the experience was Holy Loch,
Scotland was the only place in the world that could make being submerged
for up to three months look good.
Armies have almost unlimited budgets/resources. If
they want nuke ships/subs they can GET 'em.
But COMMERCIAL operations - nope.
Good, large, diesel/oil engines are still the
solution for large commercial carriers.
Saw an engine on some TV show ... it had a
people-sized door at the base of each cylinder
so you could climb in there and check/fix stuff.
I *think* individual cylinders could be detached
from the crank so, in theory, you could work on
one while the engine kept running. That sounds
very unpleasant though ....
The thing that puts me off quantum is that media loves to hype it. That to >> me, is a sign that it is nowhere near being ready for anything productive. >> But I am not a physicist! But based on this group it does seem I am more
right than wrong.
Google just blew its horn today about it's new quantum
chip - solved some 1000x-age-of-the-universe math
problem in about five minutes.
https://blog.google/technology/research/google-willow-quantum-chip/
BUT, that particular problem was especially easy
to address with quantum methods ....
I would imagine once we hit that end point in terms of regular cpus, the >>>> only direction left would be purpose built cpus on other technologies for >>>> niche use cases such as biological computing, quantum computing, optical >>>> etc.
Bio is gonna be too SLOW. Quantum, we've discussed that.
Isn't the idea behind bio massiev parallelism? So yes, the computation
might be slow, but if you have millions of molecules performing it in
parallel you do get fantastic results if the problem you are trying to
solve fits the nature of bio computing?
But again ... NOT all problems are especially well
solved with massive parallelism any more than all
problems can be Q-computed worth a damn.
So we're back to the more modern question of what
"computing" MEANS. All was clear with UNIVAC, but
since then ...
Seems like photonic is the winner for the moment.
Don't see any other direction. We're already kinda
bumping-up against Moore even now with conventional
electronics. For anything needing linear calx, I think
we MIGHT get a 10x improvement and that's IT forever
with transistor-like electronics.
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 01:54:05 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff'
How about that bubble memory?
What I recall was all the hype about how bubble memory was going to
surpass everything else and the shift was "just around the corner".
Thirty years later and few even remember "bubble memoriess" were ever a thing.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
But by the mid 1970s they had become competitive with the rise in fuel
prices, and today's level of computer systems and long range networking would
probably result in just a couple of people to manage any routine issues on >>> the power plant and satellite comms back to the nuclear power plant builder >>> to tell them what to do if anything went outside operational norms
I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships? A reactor
that is preloaded and welded shut.
Yes, and the reactor model for ships is basically the model for SMR start-ups, except with the vague idea that they're suddenly going
to be much cheaper somehow (I'll believe it when they "hit the
shelves").
Nope! Europe is too busy turning into the next soviet union to allow its citizens any form of fun, or to have opinions which deviate from what
the politicians say.
Thankfully there is usenet which lives on, completely forgotten by the
secret police. 😉
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 10/12/2024 20:17, D wrote:
But it won't be a big bang, plenty of technologies exist to bridge the gap. >>>
Would be cool if I could finally have a nuclear powered car that I
bought full, and would never have to refuel. ;)
Its almost possible. The problem is all that lead makes it even heaver
than a BEV and you have to stop to fill up the water just as often.
There is no device that turns heat into electricity better than a steam
turbine, sadly.
The Helion fusion reactor design for directly generating
electricity from the electromagnetic pulse generated by colliding
plasma in a tube is interesting. I think you'd still need the lead,
but maybe not the water. Call it a "plasma piston". Of course it's
less than clear if it'll ever work at their current power-station
scale let alone scaled down. Bigger always seems to be better with
fusion research.
https://www.helionenergy.com/
Good, large, diesel/oil engines are still the
solution for large commercial carriers.
Subtract taxes, and compare only the raw cost, and the economics look
even better! On gasoline at least 50% is tax, so remove that, and we can happily continue for at least a generation or two. =)
Are there any techniques to resupply a sub completely under water? Would
be fascinating if it could be managed and resupplied kind of like a
space station with rotating crews and all, being sent in smaller
submarines docking at the big one.
On the other hand, there's probably no use for that capability, but its
an interesting thought experiment to see if it could then remain
submerged for years at a time.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2024-12-12, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships?
A reactor
that is preloaded and welded shut. Then it operates for its entire
lifetime
until the fuel is used up, and then you change to a new reactor.
That is sort of the model used on the submarines ... and on the NS
Savannah in the early 1960s. From what I have read, it could be
commercially viable today (with the improvements in relevant technology
in the last 60 years).
Thank you. Let's see... there is much interest in the SMR. Let's see who
will be the first to take the step among the EU members.
On 13/12/2024 04:42, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Note the large uptick in seismic activity, esp along
the Pacific rim, the past couple of years. More and
more, and stronger and stronger, quakes. It is NOT
impossible to get a giant tsunami that washes away
the US west coast ... the geologists have seem signs
of those happening before.
Something else to ascribe to man-made-climate-change :-}
Or rather is something in the core changing and driving climate change?
IIRC there's a growing magnetic anomaly in the Atlantic.
But what's this do with bit-slice chips or c.o.l.m.?
Note the large uptick in seismic activity, esp along
the Pacific rim, the past couple of years. More and
more, and stronger and stronger, quakes. It is NOT
impossible to get a giant tsunami that washes away
the US west coast ... the geologists have seem signs
of those happening before.
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Ah... childhood memories! This was the easiest thing in the world to
produce! Once I managed to stop a subway line with it. I think I was
around 12 or 13, and we were playing with this stuff under a bridge that >>> had a subway line.
The subway came, created a draft that sucked all the smoke into the
tunnel, and they thought there was a fire and stopped the subway. 10
minutes later the police arrived, discovered us (we didn't run) and said >>> "boys will be boys" and let us go.
I thought the police actually thought it was funny and were reminded of
their own childhood (although of course they didn't show any of this).
Ahh, those were better, more innocent times!
Yes indeed. Today some kids doing the identical activity would pull in
the local police, the FBI, the TSA, and likely several other
three-letter-agencies and the kids would be put on several terrorist in
the making watchlists and be haunted by that label for the rest of
their lives.
Sadly I believe you are correct. =( And that attitude is killing freedom
and society.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x *more...?*
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 04:20:04 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
EVER see an actual 8086 system ? I never did. Kinda had to wait
for the 286/386 era to see the promised perks. I think Compaq
had an 8086.
The early PS/2s used the 8086. I've seen them but never worked on one.
The memory hole is deep and dark. I think I still have the preliminary datasheets for the iAPX 432 that was going to be Intel's real 32 bit processor. The iAPX 86 was a stop gap until they got the bugs worked out.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 04:37:50 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 01:54:05 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff'
How about that bubble memory?
What I recall was all the hype about how bubble memory was going to
surpass everything else and the shift was "just around the corner".
Thirty years later and few even remember "bubble memoriess" were ever a
thing.
The memory hole is deep and dark. I think I still have the preliminary datasheets for the iAPX 432 that was going to be Intel's real 32 bit processor. The iAPX 86 was a stop gap until they got the bugs worked out.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 21:34:04 +0100, D wrote:
True. My jokes about feminism and the unequality of men and women
sometimes lands me in dangerous territory with my wife. She is a
lawyer!
My wife became more religious after the divorce. About 20 years after
the
Strange! This is not the first time I have heard this. An acquaintance separated and after that, his ex became religious as well. Very strange.
On 2024-12-13, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
The memory hole is deep and dark. I think I still have the preliminary
datasheets for the iAPX 432 that was going to be Intel's real 32 bit
processor. The iAPX 86 was a stop gap until they got the bugs worked
out.
"It's a good thing the iAPX432 failed. Otherwise a truly horrible Intel architecture might have taken over the world." -- unknown
Are there any techniques to resupply a sub completely under water? Would
be fascinating if it could be managed and resupplied kind of like a
space station with rotating crews and all, being sent in smaller
submarines docking at the big one.
So you know the company president? You must indeed be a powerful man! Or
the president must be a special president who actually talks to
employees?
Or a bit of both perhaps!
On 12/12/2024 20:42, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
But by the mid 1970s they had become competitive with the rise in fuel >>>> prices, and today's level of computer systems and long range networking would
probably result in just a couple of people to manage any routine issues on >>>> the power plant and satellite comms back to the nuclear power plant builder
to tell them what to do if anything went outside operational norms
I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships? A reactor
that is preloaded and welded shut.
Yes, and the reactor model for ships is basically the model for SMR
start-ups, except with the vague idea that they're suddenly going
to be much cheaper somehow (I'll believe it when they "hit the
shelves").
Its not a vague idea, its a completely sound business model
Over 85% of the cots of a new conventional reactor is in getting it
certified to be safe at every single stage of the construction. Capital
lies idle ad does the workforce in half finished constructions waiting
to be signed off fort the next stage, and woe betide you if some trivial aspect of it isn't to the specification - you need to re-certify it all
over again.
SMRs cut the Gordian knot, By making the reactors in a factory to
identical specifications and having them small enough to trailer them to
the site, 90% of the certification is only done once. For as many units
as you care to make.
Also, below a certain size, the scale effect swings towards you: the
reactor does not need active cooling to dissipate the decay heat after a SCRAM shutdown. So no Fukushima or 3MI accident is possible. Convection
is enough to do the job.
The only downside to SMRs is that at smaller sizes they need more highly enriched uranium (or Plutonium/Uranium mixes) to get to critical. The
supply chain for that is not yet established at scale.
Most of the designs that seem likely to reach production first are
simply scaled down pressurised water reactors, as used in nuclear
submarines etc. with probably extra shelding and safety to meet
commercial safety standards.
I've always worked for small companies or for myself so there was never
the formal hierarchy. You tend to invent titles that fit the expectations
of whom you're dealing with. When asked what I do my answer is usually 'programmer'. Not very regal, particularly for those who remember when 'programmer' was the entry level position for people trying to work their
way up to the exalted 'programmer analyst' position.
He really was a good boss. I had a lot of latitude for skunk work projects and he shielded his people from most of the political bullshit going on in the front office.
I once had a boss like that. When dealing with users' unreasonable
requests,
his vocabulary contained a word that is not often found: "No." He drove
a VW Beetle, rather than the obligatory management-style luxury car,
which raised him several notches in my estimation.
However, I don't have any of the datasheets for the 432.....
The AT&T PC clone (itself a rebranded Olivetti machine) was an 8086.
That was my first exposure to the IBM PC compatible world, an AT&T PC
clone running the 8086. While one /could/ measure the performance
difference in benchmarks, in real world usage it was not markedly
'faster' than an 8088 based system (i.e., the 20MB hard disk was the
same performance for both, and its sluggishness was what one spent most
of one's time waiting upon).
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 20:13:16 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
The AT&T PC clone (itself a rebranded Olivetti machine) was an 8086.
That was my first exposure to the IBM PC compatible world, an AT&T PC
clone running the 8086. While one /could/ measure the performance
difference in benchmarks, in real world usage it was not markedly
'faster' than an 8088 based system (i.e., the 20MB hard disk was the
same performance for both, and its sluggishness was what one spent most
of one's time waiting upon).
Then there was the best of both worlds NEC V20.
https://hackaday.com/2020/07/10/an-nec-v20-for-two-processors-in-one-sbc/
That one must have really chafed Intel's butt, a pin compatible drop in a little faster that the 8088 and, wait for it, we had a few transistors
left over so it emulates the 8080 too. No wonder Intel sued.
On 13/12/2024 16:32, John Ames wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100A grown up will come along to tell you that you cant always get what you want...
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x *more...?*
On 12/13/24 11:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/12/2024 16:32, John Ames wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100A grown up will come along to tell you that you cant always get what you
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x *more...?* >>>
want...
NOOOOOO !!! WAAAAAHH !!!
https://scitechdaily.com/light-speed-ai-mits-ultrafast-photonic-processor-delivers-extreme-efficiency/
Sounds great but I think it's just a lab-bench project
at this point, NOT a big powerful 'chip'.
There's also something about 92% accuracy. Eh ?
We want 100% accuracy 100% of the time. Wanna
fly on a plane structurally calculated with 92%
accuracy ?
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 20:16:21 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
However, I don't have any of the datasheets for the 432.....
Digging into the bottom shelf behind the 3 1/4" floppies I don't either.
I vaguely remembered a bunch of data books but they're all National Semiconductor. Note to self: you really need to throw that crap out.
This ain't the Internet Archives.
I did have Intel data books and remembered the pages for the 432 with a 'Preliminary' stamp.
There's also something about 92% accuracy. Eh ?
We want 100% accuracy 100% of the time. Wanna fly on a plane
structurally calculated with 92%
accuracy ?
On 2024-12-14, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 12/13/24 11:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/12/2024 16:32, John Ames wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100 D <nospam@example.net> wrote:A grown up will come along to tell you that you cant always get what
10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x
*more...?*
you want...
But if you try sometime... you get what you need...
NOOOOOO !!! WAAAAAHH !!!
https://scitechdaily.com/light-speed-ai-mits-ultrafast-photonic- processor-delivers-extreme-efficiency/
Sounds great but I think it's just a lab-bench project at this
point, NOT a big powerful 'chip'.
There's also something about 92% accuracy. Eh ?
We want 100% accuracy 100% of the time. Wanna fly on a plane
structurally calculated with 92% accuracy ?
*cough*Boeing*cough*
3 1/4? Is that somewhere between 3 1/2 and 5 1/4? Or was there another format that didn't make it? I know there were a few.
On 13/12/2024 10:06, D wrote:
Nope! Europe is too busy turning into the next soviet union to allow its+1
citizens any form of fun, or to have opinions which deviate from what the
politicians say.
Thankfully there is usenet which lives on, completely forgotten by the
secret police. 😉
Sssh..
On 13/12/2024 10:31, D wrote:
Good, large, diesel/oil engines are still the
solution for large commercial carriers.
Subtract taxes, and compare only the raw cost, and the economics look even >> better! On gasoline at least 50% is tax, so remove that, and we can happily >> continue for at least a generation or two. =)
The point is that the economics of small modular reactors plunked into a ship and monitored more or less remotely by satellite link, with lots of smart RCMs (reactor control modules) scattered around them now fall in favour of nuclear.
Once everybody accepts the idea.
That is why a consortium of ship operators is looking very closely at it.
https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/articles/new-study-considers-nuclear-powered-bulk-carriers
https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/articles/regulatory-assessment-of-nuclear-powered-cargo-shi
and many more... https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/search?search=Ships
Now these bulk carriers have commercial clout. Enough to buy many many politicians and dictators.
Nuclear ships will happen.
On 13/12/2024 10:09, D wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On 2024-12-12, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships? A >>>> reactor
that is preloaded and welded shut. Then it operates for its entire
lifetime
until the fuel is used up, and then you change to a new reactor.
That is sort of the model used on the submarines ... and on the NS
Savannah in the early 1960s. From what I have read, it could be
commercially viable today (with the improvements in relevant technology
in the last 60 years).
Thank you. Let's see... there is much interest in the SMR. Let's see who
will be the first to take the step among the EU members.
Well UK isn't EU, but it is likely that RR who built reactors for Britains nuclear submarines, will have something in production by 2030 or thereabouts. There is considerable interest from several EU nations- the Czechs are in there too, as are the Poles, and Dutch.
France is solid EDF big scale and Germany is in a total mess at the moment as their green policy collapses.
I think by 2030 at least three possibly four reactor designs will be out there working commercially across Europe and SE aAsia and probably Africa too.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Ah... childhood memories! This was the easiest thing in the world to
produce! Once I managed to stop a subway line with it. I think I was
around 12 or 13, and we were playing with this stuff under a bridge that >>>> had a subway line.
The subway came, created a draft that sucked all the smoke into the
tunnel, and they thought there was a fire and stopped the subway. 10
minutes later the police arrived, discovered us (we didn't run) and said >>>> "boys will be boys" and let us go.
I thought the police actually thought it was funny and were reminded of >>>> their own childhood (although of course they didn't show any of this). >>>>
Ahh, those were better, more innocent times!
Yes indeed. Today some kids doing the identical activity would pull in
the local police, the FBI, the TSA, and likely several other
three-letter-agencies and the kids would be put on several terrorist in
the making watchlists and be haunted by that label for the rest of
their lives.
Sadly I believe you are correct. =( And that attitude is killing freedom
and society.
Also forgot: And their respective parents would be charged with child
abuse, child endangerment, and whatever else the local DA wanted to
throw in, for allowing "Jonny" to roam free and play with such
"dangerous materials".
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x *more...?*
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:25:26 +0100, D wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 21:34:04 +0100, D wrote:
True. My jokes about feminism and the unequality of men and women
sometimes lands me in dangerous territory with my wife. She is a
lawyer!
My wife became more religious after the divorce. About 20 years after
the
Strange! This is not the first time I have heard this. An acquaintance
separated and after that, his ex became religious as well. Very strange.
She was raised as a Methodist but wasn't serious about it. It was a search for something missing. Like many Protestants her church shopping was more about emotion than doctrine. For a while she attended a Congregational
church that leaned toward pentacostalism. The people were nice enough had provided support. I went to a couple of their services. I was raised
Catholic and the Mass did not include spontaneous outbursts or 'Praise Jesus!' and the like. I think she's into the rapture thing too.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:02:47 +0100, D wrote:
So you know the company president? You must indeed be a powerful man! Or
the president must be a special president who actually talks to
employees?
Or a bit of both perhaps!
Small company, titles are cheap. When he retired my brother was a VP of Morton Thiokol. He would point out that it was no big thing. Government
types like to think they're dealing with someone important so they made
him a VP.
I've always worked for small companies or for myself so there was never
the formal hierarchy. You tend to invent titles that fit the expectations
of whom you're dealing with. When asked what I do my answer is usually 'programmer'. Not very regal, particularly for those who remember when 'programmer' was the entry level position for people trying to work their
way up to the exalted 'programmer analyst' position.
He really was a good boss. I had a lot of latitude for skunk work projects and he shielded his people from most of the political bullshit going on in the front office.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 23:17:36 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I once had a boss like that. When dealing with users' unreasonable
requests,
his vocabulary contained a word that is not often found: "No." He drove
a VW Beetle, rather than the obligatory management-style luxury car,
which raised him several notches in my estimation.
In the first company I worked for the owner/president drove a Lincoln. The rumor was the VP would have dearly loved a Cadillac but carefully stayed
one step downscale.
At a start up the president drove a Camaro. The first few years were lean
but when we finally started making money he bought a Cadillac Cimmarron, which was their attempt to compete with the more compact European luxury sedans. It had problems but the final straw was when his secretary bought
a Pontiac. It was pretty much the same J-body car GM used throughout its product line.
Next up was a Mercedes, I forget which flavor. Keeping with the times it
was a diesel. For someone used to a Camaro the snail like acceleration
didn't cut it. He wasn't happy and when his son tried to fill it up with gasoline that was it for the Merc.
Finally he bought a Lincoln Town Car. In his words, 'If I'm going to be nigger rich I'm going to do it right!' That one was a keeper.
The owner of the company I currently work for drives some sort of
nondescript older Toyota SUV with rear quarter panel damage patched
together by the maintenance guy with duct tape.
On 2024-12-13, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
I've always worked for small companies or for myself so there was never
the formal hierarchy. You tend to invent titles that fit the expectations
of whom you're dealing with. When asked what I do my answer is usually
'programmer'. Not very regal, particularly for those who remember when
'programmer' was the entry level position for people trying to work their
way up to the exalted 'programmer analyst' position.
At a PPOE my job description was "programmer-analyst". However, the payroll system's job description field was 15 characters long (and all upper case,
of course), so it would print out as PROGRAMMER-ANAL. I always thought that was appropriate.
He really was a good boss. I had a lot of latitude for skunk work projects >> and he shielded his people from most of the political bullshit going on in >> the front office.
I once had a boss like that. When dealing with users' unreasonable requests, his vocabulary contained a word that is not often found: "No." He drove a
VW Beetle, rather than the obligatory management-style luxury car, which raised him several notches in my estimation.
Just saw this:
"China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power station in
Gobi Desert"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-nuclear- power-station-gobi/104304468
Will be interesting to see if they will succeed!
On 2024-12-14, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 12/13/24 11:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/12/2024 16:32, John Ames wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100A grown up will come along to tell you that you cant always get what you >>> want...
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x *more...?* >>>>
But if you try sometime... you get what you need...
NOOOOOO !!! WAAAAAHH !!!
https://scitechdaily.com/light-speed-ai-mits-ultrafast-photonic-processor-delivers-extreme-efficiency/
Sounds great but I think it's just a lab-bench project
at this point, NOT a big powerful 'chip'.
There's also something about 92% accuracy. Eh ?
We want 100% accuracy 100% of the time. Wanna
fly on a plane structurally calculated with 92%
accuracy ?
*cough*Boeing*cough*
Note to self: you really need to throw that crap out. This
ain't the Internet Archives.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 20:13:16 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
The AT&T PC clone (itself a rebranded Olivetti machine) was an 8086.
That was my first exposure to the IBM PC compatible world, an AT&T PC
clone running the 8086. While one /could/ measure the performance
difference in benchmarks, in real world usage it was not markedly
'faster' than an 8088 based system (i.e., the 20MB hard disk was the
same performance for both, and its sluggishness was what one spent most
of one's time waiting upon).
Then there was the best of both worlds NEC V20.
https://hackaday.com/2020/07/10/an-nec-v20-for-two-processors-in-one-sbc/
That one must have really chafed Intel's butt, a pin compatible drop in a little faster that the 8088 and, wait for it, we had a few transistors
left over so it emulates the 8080 too. No wonder Intel sued.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think by 2030 at least three possibly four reactor designs will be
out there working commercially across Europe and SE aAsia and probably
Africa too.
Would be excellent! As long as someone takes the first step, usually the
rest will follow. =)
On 12/14/24 10:31, D wrote:
Just saw this:
"China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power station
in Gobi Desert"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-nuclear-
power-station-gobi/104304468
Will be interesting to see if they will succeed!
If you are interested, there is a thorium startup, Copenhagen Atomics,
that have put out a couple of good promo videos.
The first describes the worlds general energy problem:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVue7cgmM00>
The second details Copenhagen Atomics "Onion Core" thorium molten salt reactor.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxvBAJn_vc>
Obviously it is typical startup hype, but the guy touches on most of the issues. In particular he addresses the fact we need cheap energy, which
a lot of the renewable discussions try to cover up. Secondly he
discusses non electrical energy use, which many renewable discussions
also skip over.
As I understand it, molten salt reactors have two main tech problems, corrosion and continuously separating out unwanted fission products.
rbowman wrote:
Note to self: you really need to throw that crap out. This
ain't the Internet Archives.
Still I hate doing it ... I did get rid of all my HP related manuals
when I decided the 9000/800-F10 didn't deserve houseroom, but I still
have grey and orange walls in the loft.
On 12/14/24 10:31, D wrote:
Just saw this:
"China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power station in
Gobi Desert"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-nuclear-
power-station-gobi/104304468
Will be interesting to see if they will succeed!
If you are interested, there is a thorium startup, Copenhagen Atomics, that have put out a couple of good promo videos.
The first describes the worlds general energy problem:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVue7cgmM00>
The second details Copenhagen Atomics "Onion Core" thorium molten salt reactor.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxvBAJn_vc>
Obviously it is typical startup hype, but the guy touches on most of the issues. In particular he addresses the fact we need cheap energy, which a lot of the renewable discussions try to cover up. Secondly he discusses non electrical energy use, which many renewable discussions also skip over.
As I understand it, molten salt reactors have two main tech problems, corrosion and continuously separating out unwanted fission products.
On 14/12/2024 10:36, D wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I think by 2030 at least three possibly four reactor designs will be out >>> there working commercially across Europe and SE aAsia and probably Africa >>> too.
Would be excellent! As long as someone takes the first step, usually the
rest will follow. =)
About 12 years ago I wrote a paper detailing why I thought renewable energy would never work except as an add on. Because in every case the nuclear power option was cheaper *overall* and less environmentally destructive.
It had nothing to say about climate change. I was merely looking at a future beyond fossil fuels...
But the moment I put it on line, using a name I had never used before in the Internet, and put a link to it, I discovered that I was already 'a well known climate denier' ...'in the pay of big Oil'!!
At that point I started to look closer into climate change to see why an independent retired engineer writing about energy should arouse such a false response.
Sounds like a good man! You should keep him!
Ahh... so they can take the children away and bring them up as perfects servants of the state. Make sense. =(
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
About 12 years ago I wrote a paper detailing why I thought renewable
energy would never work except as an add on. Because in every case the
nuclear power option was cheaper *overall* and less environmentally
destructive.
It had nothing to say about climate change. I was merely looking at a
future beyond fossil fuels...
But the moment I put it on line, using a name I had never used before
in the Internet, and put a link to it, I discovered that I was already
'a well known climate denier' ...'in the pay of big Oil'!!
At that point I started to look closer into climate change to see why
an independent retired engineer writing about energy should arouse
such a false response.
Really? How come you were already known as a "climate denier"?
Was that without your knowledge?
Have you written a lot of articles or published
academical papers?
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:08:02 +0100, D wrote:Probably top secret!
Are there any techniques to resupply a sub completely under water?
Would be fascinating if it could be managed and resupplied kind of
like a space station with rotating crews and all, being sent in
smaller submarines docking at the big one.
https://www.sandboxx.us/news/how-do-americas-nuclear-submarines-get-
resupplied-at-sea/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/resupply-navy-nuclear-submarine
If there is some way to resupply while submerged they aren't talking
about it.
rbowman wrote:
Note to self: you really need to throw that crap out. This ain't the
Internet Archives.
Still I hate doing it ... I did get rid of all my HP related manuals
when I decided the 9000/800-F10 didn't deserve houseroom, but I still
have grey and orange walls in the loft.
I bought a sheed-fed scanner (Brother ADS-2700W) and got rid of my black Univac wall a while ago. It's all on Bitsavers now.
I'm not a christian, but those spontaneous outbursts are very funny! If someone would force me to a service, I think I would enjoy my outbursts!
I've been to a few catholic services throughout my life, but I don't
think it was anything to write home about. In one, I think it was the
wedding of my wifes friend, the priest wanted everyone to kneel, but I
don't do that. So my wife was very angry with me when I remained
sitting. Kind of reminds me of during corona, when I was the only one
walking around a shopping center without a mask.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:20:58 +0100, D wrote:
Sounds like a good man! You should keep him!
I don't think it was 'What Color is your Parachute' but there was a book
from the '70s that had a punchline like 'How to hire an employer.' It's a worthwhile way to think. They're not hiring you, you're finding
corporation that will provide a sales force, accountants, and all that business cruft while you happily write code.
Many people dream of having their own business. Been there, done that, and found the business part very tedious.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:43:56 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh... so they can take the children away and bring them up as perfects
servants of the state. Make sense. =(
They may sometimes do beneficial work but Child Protective Services
strikes fear in many parents. A couple of weeks ago there was an article about parents being charged because the 10 year old decided to walk to
town. At that age nobody thought anything of me hiking down to the hobby store to see if they had any new models.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:03:18 +0100, D wrote:
I'm not a christian, but those spontaneous outbursts are very funny! If
someone would force me to a service, I think I would enjoy my outbursts!
I've been to a few catholic services throughout my life, but I don't
think it was anything to write home about. In one, I think it was the
wedding of my wifes friend, the priest wanted everyone to kneel, but I
don't do that. So my wife was very angry with me when I remained
sitting. Kind of reminds me of during corona, when I was the only one
walking around a shopping center without a mask.
I drifted away around the time of Vatican II so I don't know much about
the current situation. Events like weddings and funerals are a little different but in my day the Mass was said in Latin. Many had missals so
they could follow along but it was scripted and the same worldwide. There were a few responses but you didn't freelance. High Masses were more
ornate but the usual Mass did not incorporate singing. Even for the high
Mass the choir sang and singing along was not encouraged.
The doctrine was just as tight. The Cathechism of the Catholic Church says 'this we believe, this we don't believe, and for this you can make up your own mind' with footnotes and references.
I didn't prepare me for the chaos of Protestantism, particularly the touchy-feely personal lord and savior stuff. Also the Protestants take a Taliban like approach to art and most of their churches look like bus stations.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 16:22:47 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
rbowman wrote:
Note to self: you really need to throw that crap out. This ain't the
Internet Archives.
Still I hate doing it ... I did get rid of all my HP related manuals
when I decided the 9000/800-F10 didn't deserve houseroom, but I still
have grey and orange walls in the loft.
I bought a sheed-fed scanner (Brother ADS-2700W) and got rid of my black
Univac wall a while ago. It's all on Bitsavers now.
What do you do? Saw the spine off the manuals?
Sounds like a good man! You should keep him!
I don't think it was 'What Color is your Parachute' but there was a book
from the '70s that had a punchline like 'How to hire an employer.' It's a worthwhile way to think. They're not hiring you, you're finding
corporation that will provide a sales force, accountants, and all that business cruft while you happily write code.
Many people dream of having their own business. Been there, done that, and found the business part very tedious.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:20:58 +0100, D wrote:
Sounds like a good man! You should keep him!
I don't think it was 'What Color is your Parachute' but there was a book
from the '70s that had a punchline like 'How to hire an employer.' It's a worthwhile way to think. They're not hiring you, you're finding
corporation that will provide a sales force, accountants, and all that business cruft while you happily write code.
Many people dream of having their own business. Been there, done that, and found the business part very tedious.
On 14/12/2024 18:11, D wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
About 12 years ago I wrote a paper detailing why I thought renewable
energy would never work except as an add on. Because in every case the
nuclear power option was cheaper *overall* and less environmentally
destructive.
It had nothing to say about climate change. I was merely looking at a
future beyond fossil fuels...
But the moment I put it on line, using a name I had never used before in >>> the Internet, and put a link to it, I discovered that I was already 'a
well known climate denier' ...'in the pay of big Oil'!!
At that point I started to look closer into climate change to see why an >>> independent retired engineer writing about energy should arouse such a
false response.
Really? How come you were already known as a "climate denier"?
The fact was that I wasn't known at all, but my paper against renewable energy was seen by some zealot as contrary to the One True Message of Good People.
So he dissed me by calling me out as a climate denier, which at that time I absolutely was not.
But the fact that my paper scared him enough to do that raised deep suspicions that if that is the only way to propagate climate alarmism, there was something very dubious about it altogether.
James Delingpole - a art student but with a brain, came to the same conclusion for the same reasons. He called them, watermelons. Green on the outside and red on the inside.
Look at the wikipedia article on him which is a near identical piece of 'cancellation' by a green Marxist author.
Political ideologues, not scientists or neutral commentators.
Everybody who expressed even the slightest doubt that 'Climate Science' and 'renewable energy' was 100% right was a 'climate denier' and shouldn't be listened to and should be cancelled.
Was that without your knowledge?
Yup.
Have you written a lot of articles or published academical papers?
Nope. I wrote that as a way to encapsulate a process of discovery about renewable energy. That I thought might be helpful for others to read. It was the very first thing that had my real name on it on the internet.
I didn't even publicise it as my own, as I always post under 'noms de blog' on the Internet. I referred to it as 'something that might be of interest'.
Instantly the GreenTrolls were in there making sure that the Faithful needn't read it as I was this 'well known climate denier'. And IIRC 'in the pay of Big Oil' ...If only ....
But the general message of 'if you want to decarbonise electricity, then its cheaper and more effective to build nukes and forget windmills and solar panels, and here is why' hit some nerve.
I recognised it all from people I knew in the 1960s and 1970s who were communists. The same technique of social isolation and calling out people who disagreed with the message they wanted to have put over. AgitProp and emotional arguments. No pragmatism. All idealism.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:43:56 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh... so they can take the children away and bring them up as perfects
servants of the state. Make sense. =(
They may sometimes do beneficial work but Child Protective Services
strikes fear in many parents. A couple of weeks ago there was an article about parents being charged because the 10 year old decided to walk to
town. At that age nobody thought anything of me hiking down to the hobby store to see if they had any new models.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:14:56 +0100, D wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:08:02 +0100, D wrote:Probably top secret!
Are there any techniques to resupply a sub completely under water?
Would be fascinating if it could be managed and resupplied kind of
like a space station with rotating crews and all, being sent in
smaller submarines docking at the big one.
https://www.sandboxx.us/news/how-do-americas-nuclear-submarines-get-
resupplied-at-sea/
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/resupply-navy-nuclear-submarine
If there is some way to resupply while submerged they aren't talking
about it.
Without a doubt. My friend who served on a nuke didn't talk much about the mission. While they frequently wound up in Holy Loch they also went into other ports like Norfolk. You can't really keep a u-boat coming into port
a secret but they certainly didn't want anyone setting their watch by the return of the USS Baitfish every three months.
At least we owe GPS to the nukes to some extent. If you're going to launch
a ballistic missile you have to know where you are. Some things you can't keep secret:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLF_Transmitter_Cutler
We sailed past about 2 miles off shore and the rumble of what I assume
were the generators sounded like you were going to be run over by a
lobster boat any moment. (lobstermen favor very large engines with minimal exhaust systems). Of course it's on the nautical charts as a prominent landmark.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:03:18 +0100, D wrote:
I'm not a christian, but those spontaneous outbursts are very funny! If
someone would force me to a service, I think I would enjoy my outbursts!
I've been to a few catholic services throughout my life, but I don't
think it was anything to write home about. In one, I think it was the
wedding of my wifes friend, the priest wanted everyone to kneel, but I
don't do that. So my wife was very angry with me when I remained
sitting. Kind of reminds me of during corona, when I was the only one
walking around a shopping center without a mask.
I drifted away around the time of Vatican II so I don't know much about
the current situation. Events like weddings and funerals are a little different but in my day the Mass was said in Latin. Many had missals so
they could follow along but it was scripted and the same worldwide. There were a few responses but you didn't freelance. High Masses were more
ornate but the usual Mass did not incorporate singing. Even for the high
Mass the choir sang and singing along was not encouraged.
The doctrine was just as tight. The Cathechism of the Catholic Church says 'this we believe, this we don't believe, and for this you can make up your own mind' with footnotes and references.
I didn't prepare me for the chaos of Protestantism, particularly the touchy-feely personal lord and savior stuff. Also the Protestants take a Taliban like approach to art and most of their churches look like bus stations.
On 14/12/2024 18:56, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:20:58 +0100, D wrote:
Sounds like a good man! You should keep him!
I don't think it was 'What Color is your Parachute' but there was a book
from the '70s that had a punchline like 'How to hire an employer.' It's a
worthwhile way to think. They're not hiring you, you're finding
corporation that will provide a sales force, accountants, and all that
business cruft while you happily write code.
Many people dream of having their own business. Been there, done that, and >> found the business part very tedious.
Yes and no. I quite enjoyed doing cost benefit analysis. I hated dealing with people.
I only ever managed to fire one person after all his colleagues begged me to do it.
On 14/12/2024 19:13, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:43:56 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh... so they can take the children away and bring them up as perfects
servants of the state. Make sense. =(
They may sometimes do beneficial work but Child Protective Services
strikes fear in many parents. A couple of weeks ago there was an article
about parents being charged because the 10 year old decided to walk to
town. At that age nobody thought anything of me hiking down to the hobby
store to see if they had any new models.
In the UK we have two incidents.
And attempt was made to remove a child from a Romanian family by social services. The community rioted to stop them.
In another case a Pakistani girl was beaten to death by her father while her family stood by and watched. Social services knew what was going on, but forbore to 'increase racial tension' by imposing western standards of behaviour on a deeply traditional Pakistani family.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:20:58 +0100, D wrote:
Sounds like a good man! You should keep him!
On 2024-12-14, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
I don't think it was 'What Color is your Parachute' but there was a book
from the '70s that had a punchline like 'How to hire an employer.' It's a
worthwhile way to think. They're not hiring you, you're finding
corporation that will provide a sales force, accountants, and all that
business cruft while you happily write code.
Many people dream of having their own business. Been there, done that, and >> found the business part very tedious.
As I young engineer, I was puzzled at how little interest the "hot" code writer had in the slightly bigger picture. They would be happy to fix
bugs, but refused to participate in the ECO procedures to release the
product updates. I spent some time in customer support, and got an appreciation for what customers needed, distinct from what the
programmers would like to tweak. I connected with some of the people
running the ERP systems and learning their report generator programs, so
that I could do a roll-up of the BOMs affected by a changed part, and of
the recent ECOs that affected an assembly that came in for repair.
Later, when my former boss and I started a company, he took on
marketing, while I did book-keeping. We were both engineers: He was an
RF guy, while I was a systems programmer, but in a small business, each
job is 3-4 part-time jobs adding up to full time. And it makes for a diversity within the jobs that I find is good for me.
On 14/12/2024 19:47, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:03:18 +0100, D wrote:Its not good to see protestantism stripped of its mysticism and turned into a kindergarten morality play.
I'm not a christian, but those spontaneous outbursts are very funny! If
someone would force me to a service, I think I would enjoy my outbursts! >>> I've been to a few catholic services throughout my life, but I don't
think it was anything to write home about. In one, I think it was the
wedding of my wifes friend, the priest wanted everyone to kneel, but I
don't do that. So my wife was very angry with me when I remained
sitting. Kind of reminds me of during corona, when I was the only one
walking around a shopping center without a mask.
I drifted away around the time of Vatican II so I don't know much about
the current situation. Events like weddings and funerals are a little
different but in my day the Mass was said in Latin. Many had missals so
they could follow along but it was scripted and the same worldwide. There
were a few responses but you didn't freelance. High Masses were more
ornate but the usual Mass did not incorporate singing. Even for the high
Mass the choir sang and singing along was not encouraged.
The doctrine was just as tight. The Cathechism of the Catholic Church says >> 'this we believe, this we don't believe, and for this you can make up your >> own mind' with footnotes and references.
I didn't prepare me for the chaos of Protestantism, particularly the
touchy-feely personal lord and savior stuff. Also the Protestants take a
Taliban like approach to art and most of their churches look like bus
stations.
The point about the Christian story is not that it is real, but that we profoundly might wish it had been, and if we pretend that it was, then the world becomes at some levels a better place.
Children today are over protected, and this is destroying an entire generation. There are always exceptions, those are what give me hope,
but the vast majority are quite sad.
In the few protestant services I remember from my childhood (my mother
was religious, my father not) there was plenty of singing. Afterwars,
there would sometimes be coffee and cake.
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
That's the golden combination I have in my own business. I sell, and my partners do the work. They get to focus on technology, and not on
selling,
and I do the talking, and enviously look at the great technical work
they are doing, dreaming of when I was 20 years younger and doing that myself.
This is also something I tell everyone who wants to start their own
business. For the love of god, outsource all accounting as quickly as possible.
I always find it interesting, that the cheap rhetorical device of
connecting someone with holocaust deniers, passes unnoticed through even
the most major and established media houses.
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 22:20:45 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
There's also something about 92% accuracy. Eh ?
We want 100% accuracy 100% of the time. Wanna fly on a plane
structurally calculated with 92%
accuracy ?
Considering neural networks tend to be stochastic they should work well together :)
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
I never saw one but there were also ELF transmitters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency
I think some of the frequencies are still in use but nobody is talking. Imagine what it would be like if humans could directly perceive the sea of electromagnetic radiation we live in.
One project I turned down was a botanist with a theory that trees communicated via electromagnetic waves. The idea hasn't gone away.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering- trees-180968084/
There is evidence that EMFs do affect trees though.
https://ehtrust.org/electromagnetic-fields-impact-tree-plant-growth/
Sometimes for the better?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519600-500-forest-grows-tall-on- radio-waves/
It reminds me of when RF heat sealers were introduced. The folklore
suggested that women working around them either became sterile or
amazingly fecund. Humans love their stories.
"Stochastic" basically means "guessing".
On 14/12/2024 11:37, Pancho wrote:
On 12/14/24 10:31, D wrote:
Just saw this:
"China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power station
in Gobi Desert"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-
nuclear- power-station-gobi/104304468
Will be interesting to see if they will succeed!
If you are interested, there is a thorium startup, Copenhagen Atomics,
that have put out a couple of good promo videos.
The first describes the worlds general energy problem:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVue7cgmM00>
The second details Copenhagen Atomics "Onion Core" thorium molten salt
reactor.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxvBAJn_vc>
Obviously it is typical startup hype, but the guy touches on most of
the issues. In particular he addresses the fact we need cheap energy,
which a lot of the renewable discussions try to cover up. Secondly he
discusses non electrical energy use, which many renewable discussions
also skip over.
As I understand it, molten salt reactors have two main tech problems,
corrosion and continuously separating out unwanted fission products.
No fission reactor is perfect. It's engineering, not religion.
Currently the best bet are modern straightforward PWR designs that are
well understood, shrunk to a size that makes mass factory production possible.
Once we have avoided the renewable energy catastrophe, *then* its time
to look at thorium.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:21:30 +0100, D wrote:
In the few protestant services I remember from my childhood (my mother
was religious, my father not) there was plenty of singing. Afterwars,
there would sometimes be coffee and cake.
I don't recall ever going to church with my mother. The whole thing was sprung on me at a late date. During Boy Scout Week they made a big deal
about going to church with your family and I asked the fatal question
'What's church?'
To complicate matters my mother had been divorced so my father
theoretically was excommunicated for marrying her. So they enrolled me in
the Catholic First Communion class and my father dutifully took me to
Mass. I would have thought it a raw deal to be dragged out of bed Sunday morning while my mother read the papers so she started going to the Dutch Reformed church. The communion class did not go well when the nun asked
me to recite on of the Ten Commandments and realized I didn't even know
there were Ten Commandments let alone knowing a specific one. 'You're a little heathen!' She didn't know how right she was.
One summer they sent me to the Reformed summer bible school to keep me out
of trouble. That wasn't so bad since the Methodists had a beach and picnic area that other churches could use.
The real difference was the Reformed were Calvinists and not much on fun. They would have bake sales to raise money. Meanwhile on the other end of
town the Catholics were running Las Vegas Nights and Bingo. The priest was into horses so there was an annual horse show that attracted many people
on the horse show circuit. The church also had a stable and a horse, Ace
of Spades.
In my extended family some were Catholics, some were Protestants, and the kids tended to be baptized Catholic j.i.c. they might need to produce a certificate later in life for a marriage etc. Those who were really
religious were treated gently, like a nice, but dim-witted cousin.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
I never saw one but there were also ELF transmitters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency
I think some of the frequencies are still in use but nobody is talking. Imagine what it would be like if humans could directly perceive the sea of electromagnetic radiation we live in.
One project I turned down was a botanist with a theory that trees communicated via electromagnetic waves. The idea hasn't gone away.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering- trees-180968084/
There is evidence that EMFs do affect trees though.
https://ehtrust.org/electromagnetic-fields-impact-tree-plant-growth/
Sometimes for the better?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519600-500-forest-grows-tall-on- radio-waves/
It reminds me of when RF heat sealers were introduced. The folklore
suggested that women working around them either became sterile or
amazingly fecund. Humans love their stories.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:18:36 +0100, D wrote:
Children today are over protected, and this is destroying an entire
generation. There are always exceptions, those are what give me hope,
but the vast majority are quite sad.
I feel sorry when I see them being loaded into the backseat of a car in
their escape pods. My preferred location was standing on the passenger
side floor with my hands on the solid steel dash of the '51 Chevy so I
could see where we were going. The gray paint of the dash had two hand
prints where it had been worn down to the red primer. Probably red lead,
come to think of it.
If bicycle helmets existed I never saw one. Some kids didn't survive for
one reason or the other but life went on.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:15:52 +0100, D wrote:
I always find it interesting, that the cheap rhetorical device of
connecting someone with holocaust deniers, passes unnoticed through even
the most major and established media houses.
All I will say about that is it took a while to develop the campaign.
The teacher introduced us to linoleum block printing in the 'art' class in the late '50s. Swastikas were a popular motif among the male members.
Today we would all be marched off to re-education camp. Japs weren't
popular but the Germans had a certain mystique.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:27:13 +0100, D wrote:
That's the golden combination I have in my own business. I sell, and my
partners do the work. They get to focus on technology, and not on
selling,
and I do the talking, and enviously look at the great technical work
they are doing, dreaming of when I was 20 years younger and doing that
myself.
That's my downfall; I'm too unfiltered to be good at selling.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:07:43 +0100, D wrote:
This is also something I tell everyone who wants to start their own
business. For the love of god, outsource all accounting as quickly as
possible.
The nice thing about software is accounting is streamlined. Tracking inventory, appreciation of materials on hand, maintaining a payroll, and
all that stuff is best left to someone with a pocket protector.
"seems close enough"
is NOT good enough. Planes, spacecraft, bridges, huge
buildings, medical implants - GOTTA refine with the
hard-core/hard-math tools.
On 12/14/24 13:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/12/2024 11:37, Pancho wrote:
On 12/14/24 10:31, D wrote:
Just saw this:
"China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power station
in Gobi Desert"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-
nuclear- power-station-gobi/104304468
Will be interesting to see if they will succeed!
If you are interested, there is a thorium startup, Copenhagen
Atomics, that have put out a couple of good promo videos.
The first describes the worlds general energy problem:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVue7cgmM00>
The second details Copenhagen Atomics "Onion Core" thorium molten
salt reactor.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxvBAJn_vc>
Obviously it is typical startup hype, but the guy touches on most of
the issues. In particular he addresses the fact we need cheap energy,
which a lot of the renewable discussions try to cover up. Secondly he
discusses non electrical energy use, which many renewable discussions
also skip over.
As I understand it, molten salt reactors have two main tech problems,
corrosion and continuously separating out unwanted fission products.
No fission reactor is perfect. It's engineering, not religion.
But, if we are to adopt nuclear for the bulk of our global energy it is
clear that fuel price/availability will be affected, and hence breeder reactors with their massively improved fuel efficiency will be more significant.
Currently the best bet are modern straightforward PWR designs that are
well understood, shrunk to a size that makes mass factory production
possible.
If we understand the design we might just as well build big ones. Small
mass production is more to get around research and regulation problems
of new systems.
Once we have avoided the renewable energy catastrophe, *then* its time
to look at thorium.
We should do both. People are scared of building big reactors with long payback times because it seems likely cheaper systems will be developed
to undercut them. However, I think energy security should be viewed like military security, the government should pay to give us that security,
just in case.
've been thinking about if online surveillance and government control
might not force us back to some kind of fidonet-like architecture, run
on cellphone modems, lora radios or over ham-radio bridges.
Latency would be huge, but that never stopped me with my 9600 modem, and
for talking like this, is not a problem. Downloading massive amounts of
data would be painful though.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:15:52 +0100, D wrote:
I always find it interesting, that the cheap rhetorical device of
connecting someone with holocaust deniers, passes unnoticed through even >>> the most major and established media houses.
All I will say about that is it took a while to develop the campaign.
The teacher introduced us to linoleum block printing in the 'art'
class in
the late '50s. Swastikas were a popular motif among the male members.
Today we would all be marched off to re-education camp. Japs weren't
popular but the Germans had a certain mystique.
It still happens from time to time. Didn't one member of the british
royal house dress as a nazi at a masquerade? I also know that a few politicians here and there from the sweden democrats have been kicked
out for having nazi tattoos that at one time or other were caught on
camera.
Then I remember when I was young, I met one guy who was into collecting
Nazi mementos. I wonder how long he would have survived growing up in
todays world. ;)
I also sometimes wonder if he today is a computer security consultant.
As I young engineer, I was puzzled at how little interest the "hot" code
writer had in the slightly bigger picture. They would be happy to fix
bugs, but refused to participate in the ECO procedures to release the
product updates. I spent some time in customer support, and got an
appreciation for what customers needed, distinct from what the
programmers would like to tweak. I connected with some of the people
running the ERP systems and learning their report generator programs, so
that I could do a roll-up of the BOMs affected by a changed part, and of
the recent ECOs that affected an assembly that came in for repair.
Later, when my former boss and I started a company, he took on
marketing, while I did book-keeping. We were both engineers: He was an
RF guy, while I was a systems programmer, but in a small business, each
job is 3-4 part-time jobs adding up to full time. And it makes for a
diversity within the jobs that I find is good for me.
Did you grow it into a big business? How did the experience change from
the start to where you are now?
Did you grow it into a big business? How did the experience change from
the start to where you are now?
Growing big was never a goal.
[...]
From the beginning, the goal was to do something that would fill our
days and feed our families. We have mostly stayed at a headcount of 4.
My tagline is "4 guys in a garage".
5 years ago or so, we looked at the feasibility of "cashing out", but realized that the value of the company is the knowledge base of the two
of us, so we are stuck with each other until we wind it up, which we he started to do. We have offered a "last time buy" to our major customers,
and expect to be done in two years or so.
On 15/12/2024 10:07, Pancho wrote:
On 12/14/24 13:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/12/2024 11:37, Pancho wrote:
On 12/14/24 10:31, D wrote:
Just saw this:
"China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power
station in Gobi Desert"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-
nuclear- power-station-gobi/104304468
Will be interesting to see if they will succeed!
If you are interested, there is a thorium startup, Copenhagen
Atomics, that have put out a couple of good promo videos.
The first describes the worlds general energy problem:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVue7cgmM00>
The second details Copenhagen Atomics "Onion Core" thorium molten
salt reactor.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxvBAJn_vc>
Obviously it is typical startup hype, but the guy touches on most of
the issues. In particular he addresses the fact we need cheap
energy, which a lot of the renewable discussions try to cover up.
Secondly he discusses non electrical energy use, which many
renewable discussions also skip over.
As I understand it, molten salt reactors have two main tech
problems, corrosion and continuously separating out unwanted fission
products.
No fission reactor is perfect. It's engineering, not religion.
But, if we are to adopt nuclear for the bulk of our global energy it
is clear that fuel price/availability will be affected, and hence
breeder reactors with their massively improved fuel efficiency will be
more significant.
Again that is a qualitative, not a quantitative comment, and is not as
true as you think it is.
Foe example, the cost of the actual raw uranium mined ore in a reactor (before its been turned into fuel rods) is something like a tenth of a
cent per kWh.
Uranium ore is around $50/lb last time I looked.
Now the Japanese, who prefer not to have to import stuff, did a study on extracting Uranium from seawater, There are 4 billion tonnes of the
stuff in the sea.
They estimated $200/lb. So worst case £0.004 increase on the final kWh.
Hardly earth shattering.
The uranium cost is to all intents and purpose *completely irrelevant*.
The cost of nuclear electricity is completely dominated by the up front
cost to build the reactor and the interest paid on the money to do that.
High interest rates killed Britain's nuclear construction. And the rise
of anti-nuclear regulations quadrupled the cost and time to build a
reactor.
Fast breeders cost even more. They simply are not in the current
climate, cost effective returns on investment
Which is why we are all talking 'SMR' designed to circumvent the
regulations with type approval, so that buoild times and hence capital
costs, go back to where they used to be.
About 1/4 of what they are now.
Well exactly. Samll reactors are safer and cheaper to install if theyCurrently the best bet are modern straightforward PWR designs that
are well understood, shrunk to a size that makes mass factory
production possible.
If we understand the design we might just as well build big ones.
Small mass production is more to get around research and regulation
problems of new systems.
have type approval. No one is trying to optimise uranium efficiency.
Just to get some reactors built is all, before the Greens wreck the
country.
And there are other benefits of small reactors. You can build more of
them near to where the energy is needed reducing the cost of high power transmission lines...yoir grid becomes what it used to be - a
lightweight *balancing* system, not intended for massive power flows.
Once we have avoided the renewable energy catastrophe, *then* its
time to look at thorium.
We should do both. People are scared of building big reactors with
long payback times because it seems likely cheaper systems will be
developed to undercut them. However, I think energy security should be
viewed like military security, the government should pay to give us
that security, just in case.
Then you think wrong.
Look deeper. People will of course develop all
sorts of reactor tech including thorium - India especially - but there
is simply no shortage of fuel whatsoever in the world at large, In fact
there is enough fore 10,000 years of today's populations all having a
Western lifestyle.
There is no point in diverting any money we might save on renewable
energy cancellation into yet more ego projects of different technologies.
If we don't build out what we can do right now,
there wont BE any money
for vanity projects.
Stevenson didn't wait for a steam turbine to get the railways started,
he just modified a two cylinder pumping engine, stuck it on wheels and
was the first-to-market.
It didn't matter how inefficient it was, there was plenty of cheap coal
and no competition.
On 15/12/2024 10:40, D wrote:
've been thinking about if online surveillance and government control might >> not force us back to some kind of fidonet-like architecture, run on
cellphone modems, lora radios or over ham-radio bridges.
Latency would be huge, but that never stopped me with my 9600 modem, and
for talking like this, is not a problem. Downloading massive amounts of
data would be painful though.
Someone will shove some unbreakable encryption on git hub and everyone will use it.
You avoid meta- analysis by posting an arbitrary number of bytes every day to the same 'bulletin boards'. Your message is simply padded with nonsense.
Fellow conspirators can read it, to everyone else its spam..and goes in their killfile :-)
But the real reason we are not bothered here, is we are simply too small to be worth noticing. We directly influence no one.
And yet, ideas that are seeded in recondite corners of the internet, do not always die.
Sometimes you find your thesis reappearing months later in the mainstream.
On 15/12/2024 10:42, D wrote:
I once bought a book.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:15:52 +0100, D wrote:
I always find it interesting, that the cheap rhetorical device of
connecting someone with holocaust deniers, passes unnoticed through even >>>> the most major and established media houses.
All I will say about that is it took a while to develop the campaign.
The teacher introduced us to linoleum block printing in the 'art' class in >>> the late '50s. Swastikas were a popular motif among the male members.
Today we would all be marched off to re-education camp. Japs weren't
popular but the Germans had a certain mystique.
It still happens from time to time. Didn't one member of the british royal >> house dress as a nazi at a masquerade? I also know that a few politicians
here and there from the sweden democrats have been kicked out for having
nazi tattoos that at one time or other were caught on camera.
Then I remember when I was young, I met one guy who was into collecting
Nazi mementos. I wonder how long he would have survived growing up in
todays world. ;)
It purported to be the memoirs of a SS captain IIRC, who fought in France and Germany, and then joined the French foreign legion to fight in French Indo-China (Vietnam). He professed to loathe communism and communists. His tactics were brutal, But effective.
I think I paid a couple of bucks for it in a second-hand book store in Johannesburg.
I lent it to someone who didn't give it back, so I looked to see if it was still for sale.
It was, For *hundreds of pounds*, on ebay.
That prompted me to look for other examples of Nazi themed items. This shit goes for unbelievable sums. People with a lot of money love the whole Nazi meme. It is and was great theatre. Great logo. Fantastic marketing. Let's all be supermen and kick the shit out of the [insert social group you despise most]...who secretly doesn't want to do that?
(I found the book in the bookcase of the person I lent it to, she simply forgot it, so I took it back)
I also sometimes wonder if he today is a computer security consultant.
Far more likely he runs an advertising company.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, Lars Poulsen wrote:
As I young engineer, I was puzzled at how little interest the "hot" code >>> writer had in the slightly bigger picture. They would be happy to fix
bugs, but refused to participate in the ECO procedures to release the
product updates. I spent some time in customer support, and got an
appreciation for what customers needed, distinct from what the
programmers would like to tweak. I connected with some of the people
running the ERP systems and learning their report generator programs, so >>> that I could do a roll-up of the BOMs affected by a changed part, and of >>> the recent ECOs that affected an assembly that came in for repair.
Later, when my former boss and I started a company, he took on
marketing, while I did book-keeping. We were both engineers: He was an
RF guy, while I was a systems programmer, but in a small business, each
job is 3-4 part-time jobs adding up to full time. And it makes for a
diversity within the jobs that I find is good for me.
On 2024-12-14, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Did you grow it into a big business? How did the experience change from
the start to where you are now?
Growing big was never a goal.
My business partner and a friend had left a small company that made
sonar systems for the navy and started a radio company when spread
spectrum became a thing. They built it into a 30-people comapny and then
sold off the half that was least interesting to a utility meter company,
and the friend went with it. They did not like the managing part of
business and hired a CEO to do that, tasking him to find another
company to buy the remaining part so they could cash out. Meanwhile that remaining part grew back to about 35 people. The CEO managed to find a
buyer, but the deal closed right as the dot-com bubble of 2000 burst,
and in the end, we found that they had given the company away. The deal stated that "essential staff" were kept on as a design center,
guaranteed for at least 2 years, and on the second anniversary of the closing, they fired us all, stating that because engineering salaries in California were so much higher than in Calgary, Alberta, it was
unsustainable to maintain a development group in California. Never mind
that the product we had brought in, was the only thing thye ever could
build at a profit. Six months later, they changed their focus from radio manufacturing to patent litigation, and moved to Toronto.
My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet group
and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I would be willing to join him in a startup.
From the beginning, the goal was to do something that would fill our
days and feed our families. We have mostly stayed at a headcount of 4.
My tagline is "4 guys in a garage".
5 years ago or so, we looked at the feasibility of "cashing out", but realized that the value of the company is the knowledge base of the two
of us, so we are stuck with each other until we wind it up, which we he started to do. We have offered a "last time buy" to our major customers,
and expect to be done in two years or so.
On 2024-12-14, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Did you grow it into a big business? How did the experience change from
the start to where you are now?
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, Lars Poulsen wrote:
Growing big was never a goal.
[...]
From the beginning, the goal was to do something that would fill our
days and feed our families. We have mostly stayed at a headcount of 4.
My tagline is "4 guys in a garage".
5 years ago or so, we looked at the feasibility of "cashing out", but
realized that the value of the company is the knowledge base of the two
of us, so we are stuck with each other until we wind it up, which we he
started to do. We have offered a "last time buy" to our major customers,
and expect to be done in two years or so.
In retrospect, my company is very much like one of my first jobs in Copenhagen. Two sales engineers had started a boutique shop for custom interfacing. Importing some lab equipment and building custom interfaces
for PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems. 4 people in a 3rd-floor apartment in the
City.
I have worked for companies of varying sizes, but always been more
satisfied in small groups.
On 12/15/24 11:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/12/2024 10:07, Pancho wrote:
On 12/14/24 13:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/12/2024 11:37, Pancho wrote:
On 12/14/24 10:31, D wrote:
Just saw this:
"China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power
station in Gobi Desert"
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-
nuclear- power-station-gobi/104304468
Will be interesting to see if they will succeed!
If you are interested, there is a thorium startup, Copenhagen
Atomics, that have put out a couple of good promo videos.
The first describes the worlds general energy problem:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVue7cgmM00>
The second details Copenhagen Atomics "Onion Core" thorium molten
salt reactor.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxvBAJn_vc>
Obviously it is typical startup hype, but the guy touches on most
of the issues. In particular he addresses the fact we need cheap
energy, which a lot of the renewable discussions try to cover up.
Secondly he discusses non electrical energy use, which many
renewable discussions also skip over.
As I understand it, molten salt reactors have two main tech
problems, corrosion and continuously separating out unwanted
fission products.
No fission reactor is perfect. It's engineering, not religion.
But, if we are to adopt nuclear for the bulk of our global energy it
is clear that fuel price/availability will be affected, and hence
breeder reactors with their massively improved fuel efficiency will
be more significant.
Again that is a qualitative, not a quantitative comment, and is not as
true as you think it is.
Foe example, the cost of the actual raw uranium mined ore in a reactor
(before its been turned into fuel rods) is something like a tenth of a
cent per kWh.
Uranium ore is around $50/lb last time I looked.
Now the Japanese, who prefer not to have to import stuff, did a study
on extracting Uranium from seawater, There are 4 billion tonnes of
the stuff in the sea.
They estimated $200/lb. So worst case £0.004 increase on the final kWh. >>
This is not an established technology. It needs to be demonstrated to
work in volume and scale up before we can rely on it.
AIUI, there are doubts about it.
Hardly earth shattering.
The uranium cost is to all intents and purpose *completely irrelevant*.
The cost of nuclear electricity is completely dominated by the up
front cost to build the reactor and the interest paid on the money to
do that. High interest rates killed Britain's nuclear construction.
And the rise of anti-nuclear regulations quadrupled the cost and time
to build a reactor.
Fast breeders cost even more. They simply are not in the current
climate, cost effective returns on investment
I understand the current cost of Uranium is low, but for a zero carbon solution we need a massive global expansion. That will put a very rapid squeeze on fuel availability, Until things like sea water extraction
have been proven. Fuel availability, i.e. cost is an issue.
Like sea water extraction, breeder reactors are also a solution.
Which is why we are all talking 'SMR' designed to circumvent the
regulations with type approval, so that buoild times and hence capital
costs, go back to where they used to be.
About 1/4 of what they are now.
Well exactly. Samll reactors are safer and cheaper to install if theyCurrently the best bet are modern straightforward PWR designs that
are well understood, shrunk to a size that makes mass factory
production possible.
If we understand the design we might just as well build big ones.
Small mass production is more to get around research and regulation
problems of new systems.
have type approval. No one is trying to optimise uranium efficiency.
Just to get some reactors built is all, before the Greens wreck the
country.
And there are other benefits of small reactors. You can build more of
them near to where the energy is needed reducing the cost of high
power transmission lines...yoir grid becomes what it used to be - a
lightweight *balancing* system, not intended for massive power flows.
I don't know what near means, 200km isn't that far. In the past we had
at least 3 reactors that close to London. Sizewell is still running.
Once we have avoided the renewable energy catastrophe, *then* its
time to look at thorium.
We should do both. People are scared of building big reactors with
long payback times because it seems likely cheaper systems will be
developed to undercut them. However, I think energy security should
be viewed like military security, the government should pay to give
us that security, just in case.
Then you think wrong.
I think you misunderstood my intended meaning. I was talking about
building big reactors, existing designs, Hinkley Point C, Sizewell C,
etc. The government should just get on with it. SMRs are just another
excuse for politicians to delay.
Look deeper. People will of course develop all sorts of reactor tech
including thorium - India especially - but there is simply no shortage
of fuel whatsoever in the world at large, In fact there is enough fore
10,000 years of today's populations all having a Western lifestyle.
I understand thorium/molten salt is research, not a current solution,
but, if we hadn't stopped work on breeders 40 years ago...
There is no point in diverting any money we might save on renewable
energy cancellation into yet more ego projects of different technologies.
If we don't build out what we can do right now,
Yes, I agree, Sizewell C. If Rolls-Royce can knock out SMRs in the near future, great, but we shouldn't wait. That's what I mean about needing
to invest in energy security, rather than delay for something which
might be better/cheaper. It was a mistake to reduce energy to pure
economics, while ignoring security of supply.
there wont BE any money for vanity projects.
Stevenson didn't wait for a steam turbine to get the railways started,
he just modified a two cylinder pumping engine, stuck it on wheels and
was the first-to-market.
It didn't matter how inefficient it was, there was plenty of cheap
coal and no competition.
I understand uranium is plentiful now, I'm not entirely convinced it
will be plentiful if the entire world transitions to nuclear in the next
30 years. The strongest green, zero carbon strategy, is to make nuclear cheaper. Which I think is possible.
It still happens from time to time. Didn't one member of the british
royal house dress as a nazi at a masquerade? I also know that a few politicians here and there from the sweden democrats have been kicked
out for having nazi tattoos that at one time or other were caught on
camera.
Yes... bicycle helmets where completely unknown during my childhood as
well. For entertainment we had fireworks, firecrackers (now illegal in sweden), dismantling old electronic waste to see what's inside, running around on the streets of central stockholm without supervision, smoke
bombs, the occasional beer sold to minors from where discrete and hidden small shops.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:on-
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
I never saw one but there were also ELF transmitters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency
I think some of the frequencies are still in use but nobody is talking.
Imagine what it would be like if humans could directly perceive the sea
of electromagnetic radiation we live in.
One project I turned down was a botanist with a theory that trees
communicated via electromagnetic waves. The idea hasn't gone away.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-
trees-180968084/
There is evidence that EMFs do affect trees though.
https://ehtrust.org/electromagnetic-fields-impact-tree-plant-growth/
Sometimes for the better?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519600-500-forest-grows-tall-
radio-waves/
It reminds me of when RF heat sealers were introduced. The folklore
suggested that women working around them either became sterile or
amazingly fecund. Humans love their stories.
Shouldn't it be quite easy to prove? I mean EMF:s can be measured and
plants can be measured and analyzed?
Latency would be huge, but that never stopped me with my 9600 modem, and
for talking like this, is not a problem. Downloading massive amounts of
data would be painful though.
In general it is cheaper to simply scrap that one, or if it escapes into
the wild, give the customer a replacement.
Yes! And add to that, all the reporting to the tax authorities, the
social security department, and then there's some kind of new EU law
that stipulates I have to send statistics to some government department,
I don't even know which one. That is also handled by the accountant. I
feel that if I were to do that myself, it would take 10-15 hours per
month, so I'll happily (well not happily, but it is worth it) pay 400
EUR to save me 10-15 hours of boring and useless work.
My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet group
and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I would be willing to join him in a startup.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:18:36 +0100, D wrote:
Children today are over protected, and this is destroying an entire
generation. There are always exceptions, those are what give me
hope, but the vast majority are quite sad.
I feel sorry when I see them being loaded into the backseat of a car
in their escape pods. My preferred location was standing on the
passenger side floor with my hands on the solid steel dash of the
'51 Chevy so I could see where we were going. The gray paint of the
dash had two hand prints where it had been worn down to the red
primer. Probably red lead, come to think of it.
If bicycle helmets existed I never saw one. Some kids didn't
survive for one reason or the other but life went on.
Yes... bicycle helmets where completely unknown during my childhood
as well. For entertainment we had fireworks, firecrackers (now
illegal in sweden), dismantling old electronic waste to see what's
inside, running around on the streets of central stockholm without supervision, smoke bombs, the occasional beer sold to minors from
where discrete and hidden small shops.
Being young today sounds so extremely boring in comparison!
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:42:21 +0100, D wrote:
It still happens from time to time. Didn't one member of the british
royal house dress as a nazi at a masquerade? I also know that a few
politicians here and there from the sweden democrats have been kicked
out for having nazi tattoos that at one time or other were caught on
camera.
There is a lot of history that some would like to forget. The Norwegians executed Quisling as their sacrificial lamb and to hear them tell everyone was in the resistance. France, Sweden, Finland and most other European countries developed amnesia without the need to shoot anyone although some rehabilitation might have been necessary. The US wasn't occupied so it was difficult to 'colloborate'.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:36:27 +0100, D wrote:
Yes... bicycle helmets where completely unknown during my childhood as
well. For entertainment we had fireworks, firecrackers (now illegal in
sweden), dismantling old electronic waste to see what's inside, running
around on the streets of central stockholm without supervision, smoke
bombs, the occasional beer sold to minors from where discrete and hidden
small shops.
Most fireworks were illegal where I grew up but we had them anyway. Much later I brought some back from a trip to the south and wound up arrested
for possession of explosives and deadly weapons in my home town by a cop I went to school with. My future brother in law was a silver tongued devil
that could turn any situation to shit. Years later he was killed by
lightning so he may have pissed the Gods off too.
I was a big kid and the liquor stores weren't too particular. As a joke
one year I bought one of those nip bottles of gin for a Mothers Day gift. That led to an interrogation of where I got it.
One problem of being a kid in a town of about 2000 is everybody knows everybody. Pill something really outrageous and the news would get home before you did.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:46:08 +0100, D wrote:
Yes! And add to that, all the reporting to the tax authorities, the
social security department, and then there's some kind of new EU law
that stipulates I have to send statistics to some government department,
I don't even know which one. That is also handled by the accountant. I
feel that if I were to do that myself, it would take 10-15 hours per
month, so I'll happily (well not happily, but it is worth it) pay 400
EUR to save me 10-15 hours of boring and useless work.
If you're self employed in the US you have to file quarterly. I suppose
that helps to keep you from getting too far afield. For employees the
Social Security payroll tax is 6.2% and the employer also pays 6.2%. Self emplyed you eat the whole 12.4%.
Sometimes there is friction between direct employees and contractors when
the direct people figure the contractors are raking in the big bucks. They fail to consider the double dip on SS, the lack of health insurance, and stable employment. That comes as a surprise if they decide to go out on
their own. I carried a high deductible ($5000) medical disaster insurance which was relatively inexpensive back then. Today a company insurance plan may be a major attraction, particularly for people with families.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:
My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet group
and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I would be
willing to join him in a startup.
A friend got caught in the Marconi to Ericcson transition. It was fun
while it lasted.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:40:04 +0100, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:on-
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
I never saw one but there were also ELF transmitters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency
I think some of the frequencies are still in use but nobody is talking.
Imagine what it would be like if humans could directly perceive the sea
of electromagnetic radiation we live in.
One project I turned down was a botanist with a theory that trees
communicated via electromagnetic waves. The idea hasn't gone away.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-
trees-180968084/
There is evidence that EMFs do affect trees though.
https://ehtrust.org/electromagnetic-fields-impact-tree-plant-growth/
Sometimes for the better?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519600-500-forest-grows-tall-
radio-waves/
It reminds me of when RF heat sealers were introduced. The folklore
suggested that women working around them either became sterile or
amazingly fecund. Humans love their stories.
Shouldn't it be quite easy to prove? I mean EMF:s can be measured and
plants can be measured and analyzed?
Prove? Urban legends are not susceptible to proof.
Latency would be huge, but that never stopped me with my 9600 modem, and
for talking like this, is not a problem. Downloading massive amounts of
data would be painful though.
Years ago I played around with amateur packet radio. 9600 was possible
with more sophisticated hardware but the local club never made it past
1200. It was usable. Part of my introduction to Linux was it supported AX. 25.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AX.25
I still have the TNC but interest in it dropped off rapidly. For that
matter many people who used 2 meter handitalkies left when cheap
cellphones came along. There still is some interest in HF digital modes
but the ham population is aging out. There still is a lot of ham support
for Linux.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/kb1oiq-andysham/
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:18:36 +0100, D wrote:
Children today are over protected, and this is destroying an entire
generation. There are always exceptions, those are what give me
hope, but the vast majority are quite sad.
I feel sorry when I see them being loaded into the backseat of a car
in their escape pods. My preferred location was standing on the
passenger side floor with my hands on the solid steel dash of the
'51 Chevy so I could see where we were going. The gray paint of the
dash had two hand prints where it had been worn down to the red
primer. Probably red lead, come to think of it.
If bicycle helmets existed I never saw one. Some kids didn't
survive for one reason or the other but life went on.
Yes... bicycle helmets where completely unknown during my childhood
as well. For entertainment we had fireworks, firecrackers (now
illegal in sweden), dismantling old electronic waste to see what's
inside, running around on the streets of central stockholm without
supervision, smoke bombs, the occasional beer sold to minors from
where discrete and hidden small shops.
Being young today sounds so extremely boring in comparison!
Since "they" don't have a basis for comparison, "they" won't know just
how boring their childhood presently is.
On the other hand, is it any wonder why 'doom scrolling' on social
media is the entertainment for much of the children growing up. When
all the other 'fun' stuff is removed in the name of safety, doom
scrolling on social media is about all (besides reading a book) that is
left for them to entertain themselves with.
This is incorrect. "They" can talk with older people, look at old
movies,
tv-clips, etc. Plenty of basis for comparison. It is anecdotal, but I
did so myself, when a teenager and came to the conclusion that there was waaaay more fun to be had 10-20 years earlier than when I was young.
Ahh... the land of the free! Try 31% in sweden or around 20% where I am
now. Oh, and the 31% has a cap, so you only get part of that to fund
your own retirement. The rest goes to happy arabians!
My mother grew up in a town of less than 1000 and it was not so fun
being a teenager. She moved to Stockholm when she was 18 and was very
happy with her choice.
This is sad. I've heard that cheap chinese radios (Baofeng?) are
popular. I also feel as if this field is perhaps regulated to death? I
think in some countries there are free bands, but I'm not sure.
Personally, if it was unregulated, I'd at least be curious! But now,mount and a Yaesu handheld that I bought years ago. Sometimes I'll see if anything is happening but generally there isn't much on 2M. I renewed my license this year so I'm good for another 10 years. That's for the amateur bands. The citizens band is still unregulated but I think the thrill of
with tests, and loads of stuff to study, I'd never do it only to scratch
a mild itch.
Same for me with guns. If they would be unregulated, I'd definitely buy
a gun! Now with all the licenses, testing, competition requirements,
safe storage laws etc. I can't really be bothered. =(
Only way is to 3d print or build something myself. I've got an Icom dash
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, John Ames wrote:
On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x *more...?*
Let's cross that bridge when we get to it. ;)
This is the truth! Sweden most definitely collaborated under the flag of neutrality. Not a very honorable way, but I am convinced it saved a lot
of swedes, at the cost of a lot of other people. This is a fun topic to
start if you ever meet any swedes!
Oh, and the swedish socialist party was very much into eugenics. Also something that they are working hard to bury in some distant, dusty
corridor of history.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:
My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet group
and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I would be
willing to join him in a startup.
A friend got caught in the Marconi to Ericcson transition. It was fun
while it lasted.
Ahh Ericsson... the only company on the planet that makes the government
look and feel like a startup with hipsters!
A complete mystery to me that they are still around.
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:57:52 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
"Stochastic" basically means "guessing".
Pretty much. For example if you're building a classifier you split your labeled data into two chunks, one for training and one for testing. Rinse
and repeat until the output is good enough. If your image classified
mistakes a black for a gorilla there will be hell to pay.
In the training process some randomness is often introduced on purpose.
The problem is local maxima (or minima depending on how you prefer to
thing). If you picture a three dimensional surface with mountains and valleys gradient descent tends to get stuck,
For example, assume you're hiking in mountainous terrain and you algorithm
is to always head uphill. Sooner or later you'll find yourself at a place where all choices are downhill, but it isn't the highest hill around. You need to roll the dice to get off it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_annealing
There's a nice little animation if you scroll down a bit.
After training you really hope that the result will be deterministic. You don't want the cat to be alive on one run and dead on the next. Or a dog.
Differentiating cats and dogs is one of the 'hello world' projects in ML. Sometimes the results aren't what you hoped for. In one sample set the
dogs tended to be photographed outdoors and the cats indoors. Whatever
magic went on in training the result was the 'intelligence' was really
good at sorting outdoor images from indoor ones. It didn't know jack about dogs and cats.
On 15/12/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
"seems close enough"
is NOT good enough. Planes, spacecraft, bridges, huge
buildings, medical implants - GOTTA refine with the
hard-core/hard-math tools.
I think you would be aghast at how "seems good enough" guides most engineering design.
No-one accurately measures every single component that goes into a design.
At best they do a full test on the final product.
There is always room for the black swan unit where all the tolerances
were exactly the wrong way.
In general it is cheaper to simply scrap that one, or if it escapes into
the wild, give the customer a replacement.
The development algorithm of the racing Cosworth V8 was "remove metal
till it breaks, then put that bit back again".
And we can only calculate what we thought of. Some failure modes are completely unexpected.
Some of the most durable civil engineering was done by Victorian
engineers who were not able to do the calculations. Their conservative over-enginering resulted in structures that stand good even to day.
Admittedly their failures are long gone :-( (Tay bridge, any one?)
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:40:04 +0100, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:on-
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
I never saw one but there were also ELF transmitters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency
I think some of the frequencies are still in use but nobody is talking. >>>> Imagine what it would be like if humans could directly perceive the sea >>>> of electromagnetic radiation we live in.
One project I turned down was a botanist with a theory that trees
communicated via electromagnetic waves. The idea hasn't gone away.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-
trees-180968084/
There is evidence that EMFs do affect trees though.
https://ehtrust.org/electromagnetic-fields-impact-tree-plant-growth/
Sometimes for the better?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519600-500-forest-grows-tall-
radio-waves/
It reminds me of when RF heat sealers were introduced. The folklore
suggested that women working around them either became sterile or
amazingly fecund. Humans love their stories.
Shouldn't it be quite easy to prove? I mean EMF:s can be measured and
plants can be measured and analyzed?
Prove? Urban legends are not susceptible to proof.
True! Why let proof get in the way of a nice conspiracy! ;)
Latency would be huge, but that never stopped me with my 9600 modem, and >>> for talking like this, is not a problem. Downloading massive amounts of
data would be painful though.
Years ago I played around with amateur packet radio. 9600 was possible
with more sophisticated hardware but the local club never made it past
1200. It was usable. Part of my introduction to Linux was it supported
AX.
25.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AX.25
I still have the TNC but interest in it dropped off rapidly. For that
matter many people who used 2 meter handitalkies left when cheap
cellphones came along. There still is some interest in HF digital modes
but the ham population is aging out. There still is a lot of ham support >> for Linux.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/kb1oiq-andysham/
This is sad. I've heard that cheap chinese radios (Baofeng?) are
popular. I also feel as if this field is perhaps regulated to death? I
think in some countries there are free bands, but I'm not sure.
Personally, if it was unregulated, I'd at least be curious! But now,
with tests, and loads of stuff to study, I'd never do it only to scratch
a mild itch.
Same for me with guns. If they would be unregulated, I'd definitely buy
a gun! Now with all the licenses, testing, competition requirements,
safe storage laws etc. I can't really be bothered. =(
Only way is to 3d print or build something myself.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:18:36 +0100, D wrote:
Children today are over protected, and this is destroying an entire
generation. There are always exceptions, those are what give me
hope, but the vast majority are quite sad.
I feel sorry when I see them being loaded into the backseat of a car
in their escape pods. My preferred location was standing on the
passenger side floor with my hands on the solid steel dash of the
'51 Chevy so I could see where we were going. The gray paint of the
dash had two hand prints where it had been worn down to the red
primer. Probably red lead, come to think of it.
If bicycle helmets existed I never saw one. Some kids didn't
survive for one reason or the other but life went on.
Yes... bicycle helmets where completely unknown during my childhood
as well. For entertainment we had fireworks, firecrackers (now
illegal in sweden), dismantling old electronic waste to see what's
inside, running around on the streets of central stockholm without
supervision, smoke bombs, the occasional beer sold to minors from
where discrete and hidden small shops.
Being young today sounds so extremely boring in comparison!
Since "they" don't have a basis for comparison, "they" won't know just
how boring their childhood presently is.
This is incorrect. "They" can talk with older people, look at old
movies, tv-clips, etc. Plenty of basis for comparison. It is anecdotal,
but I did so myself, when a teenager and came to the conclusion that
there was waaaay more fun to be had 10-20 years earlier than when I was young.
On the other hand, is it any wonder why 'doom scrolling' on social
media is the entertainment for much of the children growing up. When
all the other 'fun' stuff is removed in the name of safety, doom
scrolling on social media is about all (besides reading a book) that is
left for them to entertain themselves with.
This is a very good point! I read today that a 21 day ban on smartphones
in UK schools resulted in better psychological health/well being, and
better sleep, and a 3% memory improvement.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:21:30 +0100, D wrote:
In the few protestant services I remember from my childhood (my mother
was religious, my father not) there was plenty of singing. Afterwars,
there would sometimes be coffee and cake.
I don't recall ever going to church with my mother. The whole thing was
sprung on me at a late date. During Boy Scout Week they made a big deal
about going to church with your family and I asked the fatal question
'What's church?'
We each have our crosses to carry! ;) I remember that my mother thought
it was very important that I should become confirmed at around age 15 or
so. I was against it, but after a lot of poking and prodding and begging
in order to please my grand parents who were religious as well, I
finally agreed to attend. So basically it was like a discussion club
with philosophical themes with a bit of jesus snuck in here and there.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:04:03 +0100, D wrote:
My mother grew up in a town of less than 1000 and it was not so fun
being a teenager. She moved to Stockholm when she was 18 and was very
happy with her choice.
It could be claustrophobic I guess but I enjoyed having plenty of open
space to ramble. The town had an elementary school but was too small for a high school so we had to go to the either the public or Catholic high
school in the city. That was, er, educational.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:12:03 +0100, D wrote:
This is incorrect. "They" can talk with older people, look at old
movies,
tv-clips, etc. Plenty of basis for comparison. It is anecdotal, but I
did so myself, when a teenager and came to the conclusion that there was
waaaay more fun to be had 10-20 years earlier than when I was young.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Paul_Smith
I read 'Where Did You Go? Out. What Did You Do? Nothing.' and 'How to Do Nothing With Nobody All Alone By Yourself' as a kid. He compared the '50s with the '20s bit I didn't feel underprivileged.
https://tinhouse.com/how-to-do-nothing-with-nobody-all-alone-by-yourself- an-excerpt/
That's a short excerpt. I did build both the spool tank and the button
buzz saw. There were also things to do with horse chestnuts. There were
also other projects that Smith left out.
https://www.instructables.com/Mini-Matchstick-Gun-The-Clothespin-Pocket- Pistol/
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:09:13 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh... the land of the free! Try 31% in sweden or around 20% where I am
now. Oh, and the 31% has a cap, so you only get part of that to fund
your own retirement. The rest goes to happy arabians!
There is a yearly maximum for the SS tax, which gets raised frequently. It was nice to max out and have a few weeks without the deduction at the end
of the year. The current cap is $168,600 so I would guess the majority of
the workers don't see those bonus weeks anymore.
Of course your benefits are taxed. Some states don't tax SS benefits but
this one does so both the Feds and the state have their hands out. Then if you have an IRA or other retirement account there is a required minimum distribution yearly which is taxed when you hit 73.
Between the assorted taxes it isn't as bad as Sweden but they're working
on it. Somebody has to buy tanks for the Ukraine.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:06:44 +0100, D wrote:
This is sad. I've heard that cheap chinese radios (Baofeng?) are
popular. I also feel as if this field is perhaps regulated to death? I
think in some countries there are free bands, but I'm not sure.
I've heard they're a good value for the price.
mount and a Yaesu handheld that I bought years ago. Sometimes I'll see if anything is happening but generally there isn't much on 2M. I renewed my license this year so I'm good for another 10 years. That's for the amateur bands. The citizens band is still unregulated but I think the thrill of
Personally, if it was unregulated, I'd at least be curious! But now,
with tests, and loads of stuff to study, I'd never do it only to scratch
a mild itch.
Same for me with guns. If they would be unregulated, I'd definitely buy
a gun! Now with all the licenses, testing, competition requirements,
safe storage laws etc. I can't really be bothered. =(
Only way is to 3d print or build something myself. I've got an Icom dash
that wore off a couple of decades ago. There us an unlicensed Family Radio Service but the radios have an effective range of a mile or two and can't
use repeaters.
In this state you fill out a 4473, the form Hunter Biden lied on, they
phone the transaction into NICS, and you are good to go in about 10
minutes. No other paperwork is required.
I was surprised a couple of weeks ago to find that instead of a paper form they hand you a tablet to enter the data. There are 20 questions. The
answer to the first, are you an American citizen, is yes, all the rest are no. The one that tripped up Biden is a trap in this state. I don't use it
but marijuana is legal in this state but illegal on a Federal basis. I
assume a little bit of lying goes on.
There is a permit for concealed carry but a couple of years ago it was
made legal without any permit. Even then it was 'shall issue' meaning
unless there was some disqualification you paid your $50 and got a permit.
In states like California unless you're Nancy Pelosi you're not going to
get a permit.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:01:58 +0100, D wrote:
Oh, and the swedish socialist party was very much into eugenics. Also
something that they are working hard to bury in some distant, dusty
corridor of history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell
"Three generations of imbeciles are enough"
https://womanisrational.uchicago.edu/2022/09/21/margaret-sanger-the- duality-of-a-ambitious-feminist-and-racist-eugenicist/
There are facets of Margaret Sanger, the patron saint of Planned
parenthood, that the left would rather forget.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/feb/06/race.usa
It's a Guardian review of Black's book but I've read the same in other sources. Besides the eugenics programs of the '20s and '30s US immigration law heavily favored northern Europeans. They threw that out in '65 so here
we are now.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:01:26 +0100, D wrote:
This is the truth! Sweden most definitely collaborated under the flag of
neutrality. Not a very honorable way, but I am convinced it saved a lot
of swedes, at the cost of a lot of other people. This is a fun topic to
start if you ever meet any swedes!
I think it was a novel by Larrson, Åsa, not that other one, that worked in some not-quite-rehabilitated people.
On 12/15/24 5:10 PM, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:
My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet group >>>> and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I would be >>>> willing to join him in a startup.
A friend got caught in the Marconi to Ericcson transition. It was fun
while it lasted.
Ahh Ericsson... the only company on the planet that makes the government
look and feel like a startup with hipsters!
Hey - Nordic - a different way of thinking.
Don't be a bigot now :-)
A complete mystery to me that they are still around.
Because they still have something to offer.
Erlang is still around and used - readily had for
Linux. An unusual paradigm, but you CAN do stuff.
On 12/15/24 5:06 PM, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:40:04 +0100, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
I never saw one but there were also ELF transmitters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency
I think some of the frequencies are still in use but nobody is talking. >>>>> Imagine what it would be like if humans could directly perceive the sea >>>>> of electromagnetic radiation we live in.
One project I turned down was a botanist with a theory that trees
communicated via electromagnetic waves. The idea hasn't gone away.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-
trees-180968084/
There is evidence that EMFs do affect trees though.
https://ehtrust.org/electromagnetic-fields-impact-tree-plant-growth/ >>>>>
Sometimes for the better?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519600-500-forest-grows-tall- >>> on-
radio-waves/
It reminds me of when RF heat sealers were introduced. The folklore
suggested that women working around them either became sterile or
amazingly fecund. Humans love their stories.
Shouldn't it be quite easy to prove? I mean EMF:s can be measured and
plants can be measured and analyzed?
Prove? Urban legends are not susceptible to proof.
True! Why let proof get in the way of a nice conspiracy! ;)
Latency would be huge, but that never stopped me with my 9600 modem, and >>>> for talking like this, is not a problem. Downloading massive amounts of >>>> data would be painful though.
Years ago I played around with amateur packet radio. 9600 was possible
with more sophisticated hardware but the local club never made it past
1200. It was usable. Part of my introduction to Linux was it supported AX. >>> 25.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AX.25
I still have the TNC but interest in it dropped off rapidly. For that
matter many people who used 2 meter handitalkies left when cheap
cellphones came along. There still is some interest in HF digital modes >>> but the ham population is aging out. There still is a lot of ham support >>> for Linux.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/kb1oiq-andysham/
This is sad. I've heard that cheap chinese radios (Baofeng?) are popular. I >> also feel as if this field is perhaps regulated to death? I think in some
countries there are free bands, but I'm not sure.
Personally, if it was unregulated, I'd at least be curious! But now, with
tests, and loads of stuff to study, I'd never do it only to scratch a mild >> itch.
Same for me with guns. If they would be unregulated, I'd definitely buy a
gun! Now with all the licenses, testing, competition requirements, safe
storage laws etc. I can't really be bothered. =(
Only way is to 3d print or build something myself.
Move to the USA :-)
We have guns out the ass - most people have
several. You can have an arsenal out of a
'Terminator' movie. Yep, there IS some abuse,
but - pop corrected - doesn't seem THAT much
worse than the UK. Almost all abuse is from
GANGS, not Joe Citizens. Any downsides are
compensated by personal rights/autonomy/defense
issues.
But then the UK/EU isn't INTERESTED in individual
and citizen rights/power/safety any more, is it ?
Power to THE STATE - and NOBODY else .......
"But it was all right, everything was all right, the
struggle was finished. He had won the victory over
himself. He loved Big Brother.”
We each have our crosses to carry! ;) I remember that my mother thought it >> was very important that I should become confirmed at around age 15 or so. I >> was against it, but after a lot of poking and prodding and begging in order >> to please my grand parents who were religious as well, I finally agreed to >> attend. So basically it was like a discussion club with philosophical
themes with a bit of jesus snuck in here and there.
Heh ... my mother was a Lutheran. They 'babtised' me
without my permission before age one.
Somewhere around age 8 I was sitting in a church pew,
listening to the preacher, and had one of those 'epiphany'
things .... "Fairy-Tales For Grown-Ups" - all the swirling
bits parted for a moment and all was clear. Still remember
exactly where I was sitting .....
No, don't hate religious people ... it's a common enough
delusion. I'm not one of THOSE unbelievers. I think it's
just best to lead by example - not by the sword.
Oh, the Boy Scouts wouldn't let me in because I was
an unbeliever ... but I kinda understood that. They
had their agenda.
This is a very good point! I read today that a 21 day ban on smartphones in >> UK schools resulted in better psychological health/well being, and better
sleep, and a 3% memory improvement.
Today's kiddies are plagued by 'social' and political
BS which constantly tries to twist their brains into
knots. For SM it means PROFIT ... for political interests
it's produced a gen of near-psychotics which can be
twisted around the proverbial finger.
No "good will" here at all.
Hey ... if you can find it ... try a movie entitled
"I Saw The TV Glow" (US title). Fair take on the
new hyper-unstable gen - largely un-rooted in ANY
sort of 'reality'.
Long long back I kinda coined the term "Dali-Ocracy".
That means a faux 'democracy' where it has become
impossible to know what's real ... and thus the
info needed to WORK a democracy is absent. All
is surreal. Conclusions without solid axioms.
Squishy-soft 'reality'.
We're HERE .....
I carried a high deductible ($5000) medical disaster insurance
which was relatively inexpensive back then. Today a company insurance plan may be a major attraction, particularly for people with families.
Somebody has to buy tanks for the Ukraine.
Long long back I kinda coined the term "Dali-Ocracy".
That means a faux 'democracy' where it has become
impossible to know what's real ... and thus the
info needed to WORK a democracy is absent. All
is surreal. Conclusions without solid axioms.
Squishy-soft 'reality'.
We're HERE .....
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 10:51:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In general it is cheaper to simply scrap that one, or if it escapes into
the wild, give the customer a replacement.
As I have mentioned my engineering statistics course devoted a lot of time
to determining that point. QA is expensive.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:42:21 +0100, D wrote:
It still happens from time to time. Didn't one member of the british
royal house dress as a nazi at a masquerade? I also know that a few
politicians here and there from the sweden democrats have been kicked
out for having nazi tattoos that at one time or other were caught on
camera.
There is a lot of history that some would like to forget. The Norwegians
executed Quisling as their sacrificial lamb and to hear them tell
everyone
was in the resistance. France, Sweden, Finland and most other European
countries developed amnesia without the need to shoot anyone although
some
rehabilitation might have been necessary. The US wasn't occupied so it
was
difficult to 'colloborate'.
This is the truth! Sweden most definitely collaborated under the flag of neutrality. Not a very honorable way, but I am convinced it saved a lot
of swedes, at the cost of a lot of other people. This is a fun topic to
start if you ever meet any swedes! ;)
PRE-1800s they also over-built ... but relied too much
on gravity to hold structures together. Most of those
old castles are now piles of rubble. ROMAN stuff - those
tended to be rather good engineering and materials and
a surprising amount - not destroyed intentionally -
still survives.
On 15/12/2024 19:08, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 10:51:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In general it is cheaper to simply scrap that one, or if it escapes into >>> the wild, give the customer a replacement.
As I have mentioned my engineering statistics course devoted a lot of time >> to determining that point. QA is expensive.
Yup. I bought a US Robotics modem for domestic use. Lifetime guarantee. My telephone line got a *direct strike*.
USR replaced it.
At some level it is not worth arguing over.
I bought 6 highball glasses off Amazon. They sent lager glasses. I complained, they sent 6 highball glasses and said 'keep the lager glasses'.
The admin work involved in processing returns is often greater than the cost of a replacement products and the cost of QA is ultimately exorbitant. In the end a statistical approach is used.
I know. I used to design Mil Spec hardware where we had a giant chest freezer to take all the kit down to -25°C to ensure it still worked.
On 15/12/2024 19:43, rbowman wrote:
I carried a high deductible ($5000) medical disaster insurance
which was relatively inexpensive back then. Today a company insurance plan >> may be a major attraction, particularly for people with families.
Sheesh. I must have cost the taxcpayers upwards of £100,000 in free NHS hospital shit.
But I gave the taxman £400,000 one year when I sold my company. So they are still in credit
On 16/12/2024 03:31, rbowman wrote:
Somebody has to buy tanks for the Ukraine.
They have been found to be almost completely useless on the drone infested battlefield.
In fact the money is going to build new useless tanks for America while the obsolete ones are being sent to Ukraine to be scrapped by the Russians at a profit to the USA which will one day get paid for them instead of having to pay someone to cut them up for scrap.
90% of so called 'military aid' consist in paying American companies to make more weapons for US use whilst older scrap shit gets shipped to Ukraine to see how well it works, Or not. As long as it is not used to attack Russia of course.
On 16/12/2024 05:54, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Long long back I kinda coined the term "Dali-Ocracy".
That means a faux 'democracy' where it has become
impossible to know what's real ... and thus the
info needed to WORK a democracy is absent. All
is surreal. Conclusions without solid axioms.
Squishy-soft 'reality'.
We're HERE .....
Yes.
And worst of all, our Glorious Leaders are no better, They too have lost touch with Reality.
So a 3 day 'special military operation' turned onto a 3 year war of attrition that has effectively destroyed Russia and much of Ukraine too. Although people will help rebuild Ukraine.
In Europe the EU is completely clueless and even the UK which had re temerity to leave it is now being led back into it my a man who thinks men can have a vagina.
On 15/12/2024 22:01, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:42:21 +0100, D wrote:
It still happens from time to time. Didn't one member of the british
royal house dress as a nazi at a masquerade? I also know that a few
politicians here and there from the sweden democrats have been kicked
out for having nazi tattoos that at one time or other were caught on
camera.
There is a lot of history that some would like to forget. The Norwegians >>> executed Quisling as their sacrificial lamb and to hear them tell everyone >>> was in the resistance. France, Sweden, Finland and most other European
countries developed amnesia without the need to shoot anyone although some >>> rehabilitation might have been necessary. The US wasn't occupied so it was >>> difficult to 'colloborate'.
This is the truth! Sweden most definitely collaborated under the flag of
neutrality. Not a very honorable way, but I am convinced it saved a lot of >> swedes, at the cost of a lot of other people. This is a fun topic to start >> if you ever meet any swedes! ;)
Somewhere there is an interesting account by John le Carré of experiences in British intelligence post WWII. They simply left the Nazis in place in government to get their pensions eventually.
The Pigeon Tunnel. Good read.
What else could they do? Kill 30% of the nation for having cheered Hitler on? For believing in German racial supremacy and the subhuman nature of Romanians Jews Poles and other Bolsheviks?
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/12/2024 19:43, rbowman wrote:
I carried a high deductible ($5000) medical disaster insurance
which was relatively inexpensive back then. Today a company insurance
plan
may be a major attraction, particularly for people with families.
Sheesh. I must have cost the taxcpayers upwards of £100,000 in free
NHS hospital shit.
But I gave the taxman £400,000 one year when I sold my company. So
they are still in credit
How did you initiate the sale? I have currently no intention of selling
mine, but I am curious about how much it would be valued at in the market.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/12/2024 05:54, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Long long back I kinda coined the term "Dali-Ocracy".
That means a faux 'democracy' where it has become
impossible to know what's real ... and thus the
info needed to WORK a democracy is absent. All
is surreal. Conclusions without solid axioms.
Squishy-soft 'reality'.
We're HERE .....
Yes.
And worst of all, our Glorious Leaders are no better, They too have
lost touch with Reality.
So a 3 day 'special military operation' turned onto a 3 year war of
attrition that has effectively destroyed Russia and much of Ukraine
too. Although people will help rebuild Ukraine.
In Europe the EU is completely clueless and even the UK which had re
temerity to leave it is now being led back into it my a man who thinks
men can have a vagina.
Ahh... so Starmer is part of that religion? Doesn't look good for the
UK, but hopefully the new tory woman and Nigel can "crush it" in 3.5
years or so.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/12/2024 22:01, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:42:21 +0100, D wrote:
It still happens from time to time. Didn't one member of the british >>>>> royal house dress as a nazi at a masquerade? I also know that a few
politicians here and there from the sweden democrats have been kicked >>>>> out for having nazi tattoos that at one time or other were caught on >>>>> camera.
There is a lot of history that some would like to forget. The
Norwegians
executed Quisling as their sacrificial lamb and to hear them tell
everyone
was in the resistance. France, Sweden, Finland and most other European >>>> countries developed amnesia without the need to shoot anyone
although some
rehabilitation might have been necessary. The US wasn't occupied so
it was
difficult to 'colloborate'.
This is the truth! Sweden most definitely collaborated under the flag
of neutrality. Not a very honorable way, but I am convinced it saved
a lot of swedes, at the cost of a lot of other people. This is a fun
topic to start if you ever meet any swedes! ;)
Somewhere there is an interesting account by John le Carré of
experiences in British intelligence post WWII. They simply left the
Nazis in place in government to get their pensions eventually.
The Pigeon Tunnel. Good read.
I really like le Carré, especially his earlier books, but haven't heard about this one. Must have a look!
I think they also managed to convert the Nightmanager and the little
drummer girls to quite good TV-shows as well!
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 14:01:24 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
We were chased by a listed company wanting to make a story for the
stock market.
Just make sure you aren't too attached to what you've built. My employer
was acquired by one of those "97 MBAs and a dozen vulture capitalists" outfits when the founder wanted to retire, and ever since it's been a constant struggle for management on our end to stave off the attempts
of a bunch of know-nothing suits to run us into the ground with full-on
FYPM policies towards pricing, licensing, and customer service...
As my business partner's wife seemed determined to wreck the company,
we decided a sale would be the optimal strategy.
...but then, in your case it sounds like a lateral move at worst ;)
On 16/12/2024 13:25, D wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/12/2024 19:43, rbowman wrote:
I carried a high deductible ($5000) medical disaster insurance
which was relatively inexpensive back then. Today a company insurance
plan
may be a major attraction, particularly for people with families.
Sheesh. I must have cost the taxcpayers upwards of £100,000 in free NHS >>> hospital shit.
But I gave the taxman £400,000 one year when I sold my company. So they >>> are still in credit
How did you initiate the sale? I have currently no intention of selling
mine, but I am curious about how much it would be valued at in the market.
We were chased by a listed company wanting to make a story for the stock market.
As my business partner's wife seemed determined to wreck the company, we decided a sale would be the optimal strategy.
You can enlist agents to do this shit
On 16/12/2024 13:31, D wrote:
Little drummer girls was appalling. Gave up after first episode.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/12/2024 22:01, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:42:21 +0100, D wrote:
It still happens from time to time. Didn't one member of the british >>>>>> royal house dress as a nazi at a masquerade? I also know that a few >>>>>> politicians here and there from the sweden democrats have been kicked >>>>>> out for having nazi tattoos that at one time or other were caught on >>>>>> camera.
There is a lot of history that some would like to forget. The Norwegians >>>>> executed Quisling as their sacrificial lamb and to hear them tell
everyone
was in the resistance. France, Sweden, Finland and most other European >>>>> countries developed amnesia without the need to shoot anyone although >>>>> some
rehabilitation might have been necessary. The US wasn't occupied so it >>>>> was
difficult to 'colloborate'.
This is the truth! Sweden most definitely collaborated under the flag of >>>> neutrality. Not a very honorable way, but I am convinced it saved a lot >>>> of swedes, at the cost of a lot of other people. This is a fun topic to >>>> start if you ever meet any swedes! ;)
Somewhere there is an interesting account by John le Carré of experiences >>> in British intelligence post WWII. They simply left the Nazis in place in >>> government to get their pensions eventually.
The Pigeon Tunnel. Good read.
I really like le Carré, especially his earlier books, but haven't heard
about this one. Must have a look!
I think they also managed to convert the Nightmanager and the little
drummer girls to quite good TV-shows as well!
I've got em downloaded if you want.
Best TV was tinker tailor and smileys people - epic shows.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 14:01:24 +0000
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
We were chased by a listed company wanting to make a story for the
stock market.
Just make sure you aren't too attached to what you've built. My employer
was acquired by one of those "97 MBAs and a dozen vulture capitalists" outfits when the founder wanted to retire, and ever since it's been a constant struggle for management on our end to stave off the attempts
of a bunch of know-nothing suits to run us into the ground with full-on
FYPM policies towards pricing, licensing, and customer service...
As my business partner's wife seemed determined to wreck the company,
we decided a sale would be the optimal strategy.
...but then, in your case it sounds like a lateral move at worst ;)
What else could they do? Kill 30% of the nation for having cheered
Hitler on? For believing in German racial supremacy and the subhuman
nature of Romanians Jews Poles and other Bolsheviks?
Ahhh... the land of the free! We'll see if the long term plans work out.
If so, when I retire, I'm coming! Sadly a lot can happen between now and then, but that's part of the charm.
Hm, doesn't ring a bell. A quick search only got me finnish books for
some reason.
In Europe the EU is completely clueless and even the UK which had re
temerity to leave it is now being led back into it my a man who thinks
men can have a vagina.
Oh, the Boy Scouts wouldn't let me in because I was an unbeliever ...
but I kinda understood that. They had their agenda.
Ahh... the land of the free! Try 31% in sweden or around 20% where I am
now. Oh, and the 31% has a cap, so you only get part of that to fund
your own retirement. The rest goes to happy arabians!
There is a yearly maximum for the SS tax, which gets raised frequently. It was nice to max out and have a few weeks without the deduction at the end of the year. The current cap is $168,600 so I would guess the majority of the workers don't see those bonus weeks anymore.
Jesus! I thought it was only in sweden. Well, as you say it's 168k, so I imagine that the majority of people in the US never hit the cap.
Of course your benefits are taxed. Some states don't tax SS benefits but this one does so both the Feds and the state have their hands out. Then if you have an IRA or other retirement account there is a required minimum distribution yearly which is taxed when you hit 73.
Of course it is taxed! ;) And your private retirement savings are taxed as well, so a nice double tax. First the salary, and then you save it, and it
is of course taxed again at withdrawal.
If you're content to wait until you are at least 55 to withdraw money, you can start a retirement foundation. The gross assets are taxed with a flat
tax of 0.3% or so every year, regardless of if the assets shrink or grow.
And in return you can withdraw your retirement savings for free. This is
not very well known, and I have never heard of a company that offers this.
What!? Aren't they about nature and stuff? Or are they a religious organization in the US?
Had no idea! Sad that you swerved from the northern europe policy. I
thin the US would have a lot less problems today if you would have
remained a bit more selective with the immigration.
We have guns out the ass - most people have several. You can have an
arsenal out of a 'Terminator' movie. Yep, there IS some abuse, but -
pop corrected - doesn't seem THAT much worse than the UK. Almost all
abuse is from GANGS, not Joe Citizens. Any downsides are compensated
by personal rights/autonomy/defense issues.
Very true that they "over-built" in the 1800s. Fails were usually due
to some unrealized design fault, not the overall-average strength of
the structure. Building on old swamp-land was a common error.
The EU
politicians have set themselves up as a new nobility. They get lifetime pensions after 1 or 2 terms in office, they get a huge part of their
salaries tax free, they get free business travel, taxi, free apartments,
and of course, legal immunity. I cannot for the life of me imagine how
come the public hasn't rebelled at the revolting life styles and benefits they have awarded themselves. And they then have the stomach to complain
and call entrepreneurs "greedy".
I used to design Mil Spec hardware where we had a giant chest
freezer to take all the kit down to -25°C to ensure it still worked.
On 12/15/24 5:10 PM, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:Ahh Ericsson... the only company on the planet that makes the
My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet
group and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I
would be willing to join him in a startup.
A friend got caught in the Marconi to Ericcson transition. It was fun
while it lasted.
government look and feel like a startup with hipsters!
Hey - Nordic - a different way of thinking. Don't be a bigot now :-)
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 00:04:19 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/15/24 5:10 PM, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:Ahh Ericsson... the only company on the planet that makes the
My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet
group and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I >>>>> would be willing to join him in a startup.
A friend got caught in the Marconi to Ericcson transition. It was fun
while it lasted.
government look and feel like a startup with hipsters!
Hey - Nordic - a different way of thinking. Don't be a bigot now :-)
Hey, Nordic Semiconductor does fine work -- but they're Norwegians, not Swedes.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 00:17:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
We have guns out the ass - most people have several. You can have an
arsenal out of a 'Terminator' movie. Yep, there IS some abuse, but -
pop corrected - doesn't seem THAT much worse than the UK. Almost all
abuse is from GANGS, not Joe Citizens. Any downsides are compensated
by personal rights/autonomy/defense issues.
The claim is 65% of the households in this state have at least one
firearm. Even some of the libs are armed.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:01:58 +0100, D wrote:
Oh, and the swedish socialist party was very much into eugenics. Also
something that they are working hard to bury in some distant, dusty
corridor of history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell
"Three generations of imbeciles are enough"
https://womanisrational.uchicago.edu/2022/09/21/margaret-sanger-the-
duality-of-a-ambitious-feminist-and-racist-eugenicist/
There are facets of Margaret Sanger, the patron saint of Planned
parenthood, that the left would rather forget.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/feb/06/race.usa
It's a Guardian review of Black's book but I've read the same in other
sources. Besides the eugenics programs of the '20s and '30s US
immigration
law heavily favored northern Europeans. They threw that out in '65 so
here
we are now.
Ahh, the left is so cute. They can do no wrong, and when inconvenient
facts are pointed out, you are cancelled, or the facts are "fake news". ;)
Had no idea! Sad that you swerved from the northern europe policy. I
thin the US would have a lot less problems today if you would have
remained a bit more selective with the immigration.
On the other hand, the master of chaotic and detrimental immigration is
of course sweden!
This is a classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOGe02pjE-g .
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 01:52:06 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Oh, the Boy Scouts wouldn't let me in because I was an unbeliever ...
but I kinda understood that. They had their agenda.
I don't remember any vetting for the Boy Scouts. When I claimed no denomination in boot camp the DI said 'I'm a Catholic. You're now
Catholic.' It wasn't about religious belief per se. A time slot was scheduled on Sunday for services and everyone had to be accounted for. I don't think there were any Jews or they would have found themselves
Christian too. As far as Muslims, the .45 ACP 1911 pistol came to be
because Muslims were too hard to kill with a .38.
But don't get too close to armed libbies - they're likely to shoot
you while trying to figure out where the safety lever is
A CIA advisory now lists Sweden as kinda dangerous.
Islamist thugs and gangs now routinely prey on the weak. Women are
more reluctant to go out on the streets at night.
The salary that goes into the retirement account is NOT taxed (the contribution is tax deductible in the year it is earned) but when you
take money out later, the withdrawals are taxable income. Not so
unfair.
"No Denomination" is different from 'unbeliever'.
To the BSA it suggests that you are 'religious', probably Xian.
FYI ... Norway, Sweden, Finland and often Denmark are generically
referred to as "The Nordics". There is enough shared culture &
history to kinda make them a distinctive cultural group.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 10:58:52 +0100, D wrote:
What!? Aren't they about nature and stuff? Or are they a religious
organization in the US?
A little bit but the troop I was in didn't take it seriously. We met in
the basement of the Dutch Reformed church but that didn't mean anything
other than it was a more suitable meeting space than the Catholic church
had.
Many years later the LDS became very active in scouting locally and
sponsored a couple of troops, Some of my neighbors wouldn't let their kids join from fear that they would come home converted. I'm not sure what the
LDS is doing now that the Boy Scouts became coed. I know they didn't buy
into the idea. Maybe they have their own fork.
On 15/12/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
"seems close enough"
is NOT good enough. Planes, spacecraft, bridges, huge
buildings, medical implants - GOTTA refine with the
hard-core/hard-math tools.
I think you would be aghast at how "seems good enough" guides most engineering design.
No-one accurately measures every single component that goes into a design.
At best they do a full test on the final product.
There is always room for the black swan unit where all the tolerances
were exactly the wrong way.
In general it is cheaper to simply scrap that one, or if it escapes into
the wild, give the customer a replacement.
The development algorithm of the racing Cosworth V8 was "remove metal
till it breaks, then put that bit back again".
And we can only calculate what we thought of. Some failure modes are completely unexpected.
Some of the most durable civil engineering was done by Victorian
engineers who were not able to do the calculations. Their conservative over-enginering resulted in structures that stand good even to day.
Admittedly their failures are long gone :-( (Tay bridge, any one?)
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
This is a very good point! I read today that a 21 day ban on smartphones in >>> UK schools resulted in better psychological health/well being, and better >>> sleep, and a 3% memory improvement.
Today's kiddies are plagued by 'social' and political
BS which constantly tries to twist their brains into
knots. For SM it means PROFIT ... for political interests
it's produced a gen of near-psychotics which can be
twisted around the proverbial finger.
This is the truth. I see it in the class room every single day. If the exam is
hard, they would never dream of working harder or study more. Instead they complain to the school that the teacher is evil, and refuse to take the exam until it is made easier.
The thought of doing long division in Roman numerals fills me with
dread--let along manually doing finite element analysis.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:56:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What else could they do? Kill 30% of the nation for having cheered
Hitler on? For believing in German racial supremacy and the subhuman
nature of Romanians Jews Poles and other Bolsheviks?
Considering Brits have their own opinions on subhumans they were in as
weak a position as the US explaining to von Braun's crew why blacks were completely segregated in Alabama.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 19:45:03 +0100
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Sounds like the clowns who acquired SUSE linux. Absolute disaster. It
is very strange that those types of people are earning the amount of
money they do.
Surely it must only be about finding the greater fool, and nothing
about actually creating value.
It absolutely is, where "finding the greater fool" is defined as
"juicing the numbers just long enough to pull off an IPO, and scampering
off before the resulting twisted steroid mutant collapses into flaming
ruin."
Unfortunately, this model is absolutely *epidemic* these days (in the
US, at least.) Ed Zitron - https://www.wheresyoured.at/ - has written
quite a bit in the last few years about the deleterious effects this
has had on the tech industry.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 10:38:58 +0100, D wrote:
Hm, doesn't ring a bell. A quick search only got me finnish books for
some reason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85sa_Larsson
I see most of them are now in English translations. Germans love their Schwedenkrimi so there's often a German translation first that is
available on Kindle. It keeps my German familiarity from vanishing completely.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 01:52:06 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Oh, the Boy Scouts wouldn't let me in because I was an unbeliever ...
but I kinda understood that. They had their agenda.
I don't remember any vetting for the Boy Scouts. When I claimed no denomination in boot camp the DI said 'I'm a Catholic. You're now
Catholic.' It wasn't about religious belief per se. A time slot was scheduled on Sunday for services and everyone had to be accounted for. I don't think there were any Jews or they would have found themselves
Christian too. As far as Muslims, the .45 ACP 1911 pistol came to be
because Muslims were too hard to kill with a .38.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 10:37:27 +0100, D wrote:
Ahhh... the land of the free! We'll see if the long term plans work out.
If so, when I retire, I'm coming! Sadly a lot can happen between now and
then, but that's part of the charm.
Choose carefully. Some parts of the land of the free aren't very free.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:51:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In Europe the EU is completely clueless and even the UK which had re
temerity to leave it is now being led back into it my a man who thinks
men can have a vagina.
Scholz got his vote of no confidence. It will be interesting to see how
that plays out. Apparently the CDU head isn't a EU fan.
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:09:13 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh... the land of the free! Try 31% in sweden or around 20% where I am now. Oh, and the 31% has a cap, so you only get part of that to fund
your own retirement. The rest goes to happy arabians!
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
There is a yearly maximum for the SS tax, which gets raised frequently. It
was nice to max out and have a few weeks without the deduction at the end of the year. The current cap is $168,600 so I would guess the majority of the workers don't see those bonus weeks anymore.
On 2024-12-16, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Jesus! I thought it was only in sweden. Well, as you say it's 168k, so I
imagine that the majority of people in the US never hit the cap.
Of course your benefits are taxed. Some states don't tax SS benefits but this one does so both the Feds and the state have their hands out. Then if
you have an IRA or other retirement account there is a required minimum distribution yearly which is taxed when you hit 73.
Of course it is taxed! ;) And your private retirement savings are taxed as >> well, so a nice double tax. First the salary, and then you save it, and it >> is of course taxed again at withdrawal.
The salary that goes into the retirement account is NOT taxed (the contribution is tax deductible in the year it is earned) but when you
take money out later, the withdrawals are taxable income. Not so
unfair.
If you're content to wait until you are at least 55 to withdraw money, you >> can start a retirement foundation. The gross assets are taxed with a flat
tax of 0.3% or so every year, regardless of if the assets shrink or grow.
And in return you can withdraw your retirement savings for free. This is
not very well known, and I have never heard of a company that offers this.
So an after-tax savings account. How is this different from an ordinary savings account ... I guess the difference is that the interest is
tax-free? Sweden special!
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 10:58:52 +0100, D wrote:
What!? Aren't they about nature and stuff? Or are they a religious
organization in the US?
A little bit but the troop I was in didn't take it seriously. We met in
the basement of the Dutch Reformed church but that didn't mean anything
other than it was a more suitable meeting space than the Catholic church
had.
Many years later the LDS became very active in scouting locally and
sponsored a couple of troops, Some of my neighbors wouldn't let their kids join from fear that they would come home converted. I'm not sure what the
LDS is doing now that the Boy Scouts became coed. I know they didn't buy
into the idea. Maybe they have their own fork.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 10:41:17 +0100, D wrote:
Had no idea! Sad that you swerved from the northern europe policy. I
thin the US would have a lot less problems today if you would have
remained a bit more selective with the immigration.
Hell, yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965
Emmanuel Celler and his shabbas goy, Hart got it passed. The ADL was
pushing it. Handlin ghost wrote Kennedy's pamphlet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Handlin
Johnson was in panic mode as the blacks burned down US cities. Parasites prefer the host weakened but not dead.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 00:04:19 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/15/24 5:10 PM, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:Ahh Ericsson... the only company on the planet that makes the
My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet
group and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I >>>>> would be willing to join him in a startup.
A friend got caught in the Marconi to Ericcson transition. It was fun
while it lasted.
government look and feel like a startup with hipsters!
Hey - Nordic - a different way of thinking. Don't be a bigot now :-)
Hey, Nordic Semiconductor does fine work -- but they're Norwegians, not Swedes.
On 2024-12-16, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
The EU
politicians have set themselves up as a new nobility. They get lifetime
pensions after 1 or 2 terms in office, they get a huge part of their
salaries tax free, they get free business travel, taxi, free apartments,
and of course, legal immunity. I cannot for the life of me imagine how
come the public hasn't rebelled at the revolting life styles and benefits
they have awarded themselves. And they then have the stomach to complain
and call entrepreneurs "greedy".
US politicians also get a pension after a term in office (although I
think it is quite modest if they serve only one term).
Lots of people that work outside of their official country of residence
get some benefits tax free.
Travel mandated by the employer (so-called business travel) is usually
paid by the employer.
There may be some exploitation, but most of the things you mention do
not seem outrageous to me.
On 12/16/24 4:18 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 00:04:19 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/15/24 5:10 PM, D wrote:Hey, Nordic Semiconductor does fine work -- but they're Norwegians, not
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:Ahh Ericsson... the only company on the planet that makes the
My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet
group and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I >>>>>> would be willing to join him in a startup.
A friend got caught in the Marconi to Ericcson transition. It was fun >>>>> while it lasted.
government look and feel like a startup with hipsters!
Hey - Nordic - a different way of thinking. Don't be a bigot now :-) >>
Swedes.
FYI ... Norway, Sweden, Finland and often Denmark are
generically referred to as "The Nordics". There is
enough shared culture & history to kinda make them a
distinctive cultural group.
As for the BUSINESS SENSIBILITY of Ericsson, well ...
On 12/16/24 4:41 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:01:58 +0100, D wrote:
Oh, and the swedish socialist party was very much into eugenics. Also
something that they are working hard to bury in some distant, dusty
corridor of history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell
"Three generations of imbeciles are enough"
https://womanisrational.uchicago.edu/2022/09/21/margaret-sanger-the-
duality-of-a-ambitious-feminist-and-racist-eugenicist/
There are facets of Margaret Sanger, the patron saint of Planned
parenthood, that the left would rather forget.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/feb/06/race.usa
It's a Guardian review of Black's book but I've read the same in other
sources. Besides the eugenics programs of the '20s and '30s US immigration >>> law heavily favored northern Europeans. They threw that out in '65 so here >>> we are now.
Ahh, the left is so cute. They can do no wrong, and when inconvenient facts >> are pointed out, you are cancelled, or the facts are "fake news". ;)
Had no idea! Sad that you swerved from the northern europe policy. I thin
the US would have a lot less problems today if you would have remained a
bit more selective with the immigration.
On the other hand, the master of chaotic and detrimental immigration is of >> course sweden!
This is a classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOGe02pjE-g .
A CIA advisory now lists Sweden as kinda dangerous.
Islamist thugs and gangs now routinely prey on the
weak. Women are more reluctant to go out on the
streets at night.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 21:38:03 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
A CIA advisory now lists Sweden as kinda dangerous.
Islamist thugs and gangs now routinely prey on the weak. Women are
more reluctant to go out on the streets at night.
The Danes got their revenge. Their immigration policy is 'The bridge is
that way. Keep moving.'
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:56:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What else could they do? Kill 30% of the nation for having cheered
Hitler on? For believing in German racial supremacy and the subhuman
nature of Romanians Jews Poles and other Bolsheviks?
Considering Brits have their own opinions on subhumans
weak a position as the US explaining to von Braun's crew why blacks were completely segregated in Alabama.
On 2024-12-16, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I used to design Mil Spec hardware where we had a giant chest
freezer to take all the kit down to -25°C to ensure it still worked.
I could have sworn it was required to run at -40 degrees (C or F, same thing). My little company of "4 guys in a garage" has a chamber where we
can test from -40 to +70 C. (Got it for free. A friend at a large
defense contractor company nearby alerted us when they got a new one and
put their old one out in the parking lot for the trash collector to pick
up.)
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 10:37:27 +0100, D wrote:
Ahhh... the land of the free! We'll see if the long term plans work out. >>> If so, when I retire, I'm coming! Sadly a lot can happen between now and >>> then, but that's part of the charm.
Choose carefully. Some parts of the land of the free aren't very free.
Oh yes... I'm starting to realize. There's a prison called California, I
have heard very sinister things about it!
No... rural, red and bible tumping generally seems to be the recipe when
it comes to finding the more free areas of the home of the brave and
land of the free.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:51:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In Europe the EU is completely clueless and even the UK which had re
temerity to leave it is now being led back into it my a man who thinks
men can have a vagina.
Scholz got his vote of no confidence. It will be interesting to see how
that plays out. Apparently the CDU head isn't a EU fan.
A colleague at one of my current consulting gigs was very happy to see
the coalition bust, and joined the green party the next day.
My prediction is a destruction of the socialists, enormous leaps forward
for the greens, the extreme left and right, and I suspect they will end
up with a christian democrat minority government.
I doubt, but would be positively surprised, if they would end up with
the swedish model of a center government with support from the nationalist/extreme right.
I think germany is still too scared of the right to do something like
that, although it was worked fairly ok in the swedish government constellation, with a good "give and take" between the center and the nationalist right.
Don't trust the danish! They are very tricky people. They invaded sweden once, and we're constantly watching them, in case they will try it
again! As for the rest, they are good people, although the norwegian are
the most lazy people on the planet.
If you're content to wait until you are at least 55 to withdraw money, you can start a retirement foundation. The gross assets are taxed with a flat tax of 0.3% or so every year, regardless of if the assets shrink or grow. And in return you can withdraw your retirement savings for free. This is
not very well known, and I have never heard of a company that offers this.
So an after-tax savings account. How is this different from an ordinary savings account ... I guess the difference is that the interest is tax-free? Sweden special!
The difference is that in an ordinary savings account, you put in taxed money. In this type of account, your company can put in gross earnings,
have the capital gains being taxed at only 0.3% (ish) flat fee per year,
and then when you, the employee, withdraw it, it's taxed as retirement income.
If you put in your taxed savings into a "kapitalförsäkring" you can withdraw the money tax free, but the flat tax is higher, it's currently 0,888% for 2025.
How did you do the rb/D quoting?
How did you do the rb/D quoting? Do you have a script for that? It was
very beautiful.
Yes, I would imagine they have their own. I like the idea of still
having activities for only men and women. I think those types of spaces
are severely lacking in todays society, and i think they are extremely beneficial for the development of young men and women.
Hahaha... 100% true! I remember several years ago, it was found out that danish politicians actually paid for train tickets for arabians and sent
them along to sweden. Absolutely hilarious! I'm telling you, never trust
the danish!
On 12/9/24 8:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 13:58:47 -0800, John Ames wrote:
Any chance of this conversation returning to anything even *slightly*
more relevant to *nix, computers in general, or, like, *anything* else?
Maybe I should dig up some old Francis E. Dec rant for a more coherent/
relevant refresher course...
Feel free to start a thread.
Ummmmm ... I just TRIED with the "Bit-Slice" topic.
Jumped IMMEDIATELY back to 'non-OS/Computer stuff' :-)
Was HOPING for discussion/insight into 'alternative'
schemes for 'CPU's and such derived from older solutions.
Houston, we have a problem .............
Really?! Why was that? Did they have too thick skulls?
Yep... economy is fine. No need for private jets and business class.
On 16/12/2024 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:56:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What else could they do? Kill 30% of the nation for having cheered
Hitler on? For believing in German racial supremacy and the subhuman
nature of Romanians Jews Poles and other Bolsheviks?
Considering Brits have their own opinions on subhumans
We dont have subhumans
No... rural, red and bible tumping generally seems to be the recipe when
it comes to finding the more free areas of the home of the brave and
land of the free.
If you ever go to Stockholm, stay within the city center, and only walk
on the well lit mainstreets at night.
I've have several friends who got mugged or assaulted at night in the
city center by the arabian gangs.
Ahh.. ok, now I know. "Her books and characters serve as the basis for
the internationally successful TV series Rebecka Martinsson." I've seen
an episode or two when visiting Stockholm, since my father really enjoys criminal shows.
Don't trust the danish! They are very tricky people. They invaded sweden once, and we're constantly watching them, in case they will try it
again! As for the rest, they are good people, although the norwegian are
the most lazy people on the planet.
Danes are Germans with a seasick accent.
Did you know they are so socialist that every baby has a line tattooed
on its head at birth "This way up"
There are two neobanks, Avanza and Nordnet who are just about to take
their first stumbling steps outside of the swedish market. They are
quite alright as well.
On 2024-12-17, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
How did you do the rb/D quoting? Do you have a script for that? It was
very beautiful.
Hand editing in "vi" - my newsreader is "slrn".
For a while I was using Thunderbird as my newsreader, but since I use a variety of computers, it was a nuisance that each device had its own
"newsrc" file.
With "slrn", I can "ssh" into one Fedora box, with minimal bandwidth consumption and delay. TigerVNC is not so friendly for that.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:36:04 +0100, D wrote:
Yes, I would imagine they have their own. I like the idea of still
having activities for only men and women. I think those types of spaces
are severely lacking in todays society, and i think they are extremely
beneficial for the development of young men and women.
Consider some of the stunts we pulled off as Boy Scouts I shudder to think
of adding girls to the mix. It might improve those winter camping trips though.
On 17 Dec 2024 04:34:14 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:
The thought of doing long division in Roman numerals fills me with
dread--let along manually doing finite element analysis.
I wonder how many little tricks they had? I've worked with carpenters who didn't know squat about the Pythagorean theorem or Euclidean geometry but they certainly knew about 3-4-5 triangles and such.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/16/24 4:18 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 00:04:19 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/15/24 5:10 PM, D wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:Ahh Ericsson... the only company on the planet that makes the
My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs >>>>>>> available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet >>>>>>> group and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I >>>>>>> would be willing to join him in a startup.
A friend got caught in the Marconi to Ericcson transition. It was fun >>>>>> while it lasted.
government look and feel like a startup with hipsters!
Hey - Nordic - a different way of thinking. Don't be a bigot
now :-)
Hey, Nordic Semiconductor does fine work -- but they're Norwegians, not
Swedes.
FYI ... Norway, Sweden, Finland and often Denmark are
generically referred to as "The Nordics". There is
enough shared culture & history to kinda make them a
distinctive cultural group.
Don't trust the danish! They are very tricky people. They invaded sweden once, and we're constantly watching them, in case they will try it
again! As for the rest, they are good people, although the norwegian are
the most lazy people on the planet.
As for the BUSINESS SENSIBILITY of Ericsson, well ...
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:28:01 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Danes are Germans with a seasick accent.
Did you know they are so socialist that every baby has a line tattooed
on its head at birth "This way up"
The Danes improved the British gene pool.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:20:58 +0100, D wrote:
Sounds like a good man! You should keep him!
I don't think it was 'What Color is your Parachute' but there was a book
from the '70s that had a punchline like 'How to hire an employer.' It's a
worthwhile way to think. They're not hiring you, you're finding
corporation that will provide a sales force, accountants, and all that
business cruft while you happily write code.
Many people dream of having their own business. Been there, done that,
and
found the business part very tedious.
This is a very powerful mindset I've had my entire working life. I think
more people who are employed, should think of themselves as one man entrepreurs, as you say, you are the one with value, and shop around as
you would if you ran your own business.
As for having my own business, yes, the accounting is tedious, but I pay about 400 EUR per month to get that done for me.
This is also something I tell everyone who wants to start their own
business. For the love of god, outsource all accounting as quickly as possible.
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named 'Cheddar
Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently sailed up
the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just as
the ice age was starting to thaw.
On 12/17/24 4:41 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:28:01 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Danes are Germans with a seasick accent.
Did you know they are so socialist that every baby has a line tattooed
on its head at birth "This way up"
The Danes improved the British gene pool.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw
Agreed there ... the old Brits were an ugly lot :-)
Actually, hard to tell what a "Brit" actually IS.
It's one of those countries occupied/invaded by
SO many entities over the ages that nobody really
has a claim.
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil
named 'Cheddar Man' - turned out to be a 'black'
African who apparently sailed up the Spanish and
finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just
as the ice age was starting to thaw.
Oldest living lines ... probably somewhere in Wales.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named 'Cheddar
Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently sailed up
the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just as
the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:13:37 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/12/2024 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:56:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What else could they do? Kill 30% of the nation for having cheered
Hitler on? For believing in German racial supremacy and the subhuman
nature of Romanians Jews Poles and other Bolsheviks?
Considering Brits have their own opinions on subhumans
We dont have subhumans
Only pakis, wogs, and other endearing terms.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
This is a very good point! I read today that a 21 day ban on smartphones in
UK schools resulted in better psychological health/well being, and better >>>> sleep, and a 3% memory improvement.
Today's kiddies are plagued by 'social' and political
BS which constantly tries to twist their brains into
knots. For SM it means PROFIT ... for political interests
it's produced a gen of near-psychotics which can be
twisted around the proverbial finger.
This is the truth. I see it in the class room every single day. If the exam is
hard, they would never dream of working harder or study more. Instead they >> complain to the school that the teacher is evil, and refuse to take the exam >> until it is made easier.
I wonder how some of these pansies would have responded to the digital
logic design exams I had long ago in university. The prof. told
everyone the rules up front: open book, open notes, and the kicker: an
exam suitable for a 70min period, but we had 50min to take it.
After the first one, I worked out why the "70min in 50min time slot".
The digital logic design problems that were suitable for a pencil and
paper exam had a hard complexity knee at about the 4-5 bits point. 4-5
bits or less and one could solve the Karnaugh maps on paper by hand.
And even 5 bits was 'pushing it', paper complexity wise. Anything
beyond was in the realm of "you now need a computer solver for this".
So all the problems on the exams ended up being /easy enough/
(relatively speaking) that 50min of problems in 50min of exam time
meant that nearly the entire class would score 95+ (out of 100). So to separate out those who truly understood from those just getting by
required "too many problems" to solve in time. The good students had
no problem finishing a 70min exam in 50 minutes and scoring 95+ on them (myself and another classmate named Scott proved that fact). The "ok" students would get most of the exam done, and score in the 75-90 range.
And the actual mediocre students would be the ones scoring the sub 75
scores because they cracked open the book (and if you needed to crack
open the book, it meant you were not going to score well on the exam,
making the whole "open book, open note" rule moot).
There was bitching and moaning on the part of the mediocre students
after each exam, but nothing changed because of their bitching and
moaning.
On 17/12/2024 09:23, D wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 10:37:27 +0100, D wrote:
Ahhh... the land of the free! We'll see if the long term plans work out. >>>> If so, when I retire, I'm coming! Sadly a lot can happen between now and >>>> then, but that's part of the charm.
Choose carefully. Some parts of the land of the free aren't very free.
Oh yes... I'm starting to realize. There's a prison called California, I
have heard very sinister things about it!
No... rural, red and bible tumping generally seems to be the recipe when it >> comes to finding the more free areas of the home of the brave and land of
the free.
Yep. I am not religious, but I'd rather live in Utah or Montana that California, these days.
On 17/12/2024 09:26, D wrote:
Yes. a staggering amount of people vote green despite the fact that they cant run a pissup at a brewery.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:51:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In Europe the EU is completely clueless and even the UK which had re
temerity to leave it is now being led back into it my a man who thinks >>>> men can have a vagina.
Scholz got his vote of no confidence. It will be interesting to see how
that plays out. Apparently the CDU head isn't a EU fan.
A colleague at one of my current consulting gigs was very happy to see the >> coalition bust, and joined the green party the next day.
My prediction is a destruction of the socialists, enormous leaps forward
for the greens, the extreme left and right, and I suspect they will end up >> with a christian democrat minority government.
There will always be a few Neonazis and communists (not much difference) and Green is the new communist anyway.
The dividing line is actually between ideological politics and pragmatic politics.
AS living standard fall people have less time for ideology and moral arguments: they want heating in their homes and food on the table.
I doubt, but would be positively surprised, if they would end up with theNot a bad mix IMHO
swedish model of a center government with support from the
nationalist/extreme right.
I think germany is still too scared of the right to do something like that, >> although it was worked fairly ok in the swedish government constellation,
with a good "give and take" between the center and the nationalist right.
On 17/12/2024 09:49, D wrote:
Don't trust the danish! They are very tricky people. They invaded sweden
once, and we're constantly watching them, in case they will try it again!
As for the rest, they are good people, although the norwegian are the most >> lazy people on the planet.
Danes are Germans with a seasick accent.
Did you know they are so socialist that every baby has a line tattooed on its head at birth
"This way up" :-)
Much prefer swedes
On 2024-12-17, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
How did you do the rb/D quoting? Do you have a script for that? It was
very beautiful.
Hand editing in "vi" - my newsreader is "slrn".
For a while I was using Thunderbird as my newsreader, but since I use a variety of computers, it was a nuisance that each device had its own
"newsrc" file.
With "slrn", I can "ssh" into one Fedora box, with minimal bandwidth consumption and delay. TigerVNC is not so friendly for that.
On 2024-12-17, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
If you're content to wait until you are at least 55 to withdraw money, you can start a retirement foundation. The gross assets are taxed with a flat tax of 0.3% or so every year, regardless of if the assets shrink or grow. And in return you can withdraw your retirement savings for free. This is not very well known, and I have never heard of a company that offers this.
So an after-tax savings account. How is this different from an ordinary savings account ... I guess the difference is that the interest is tax-free? Sweden special!
The difference is that in an ordinary savings account, you put in taxed
money. In this type of account, your company can put in gross earnings,
have the capital gains being taxed at only 0.3% (ish) flat fee per year,
and then when you, the employee, withdraw it, it's taxed as retirement
income.
If you put in your taxed savings into a "kapitalförsäkring" you can
withdraw the money tax free, but the flat tax is higher, it's currently
0,888% for 2025.
What is taxed a 0.3%/year: The capital GAIN (interest) for the year, or
the accumulated capital value?
And does "retirement income" have a lower tax rate than "long term
capital gains"?
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:55:30 +0100, D wrote:
Hahaha... 100% true! I remember several years ago, it was found out that
danish politicians actually paid for train tickets for arabians and sent
them along to sweden. Absolutely hilarious! I'm telling you, never trust
the danish!
You've got to get your kicks in when you can. Denmark has a way of losing territory when it goes to war so subtlety is required.
I didn't realize there is a 4th season on Netflix but I enjoyed 'Borgen'. Sausage making is so much more fun when you have 9 or 10 parties.
D wrote:
How did you do the rb/D quoting?
Its often a sign of messages that have been gatewayed via FidoNet
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:36:04 +0100, D wrote:
Yes, I would imagine they have their own. I like the idea of still
having activities for only men and women. I think those types of spaces
are severely lacking in todays society, and i think they are extremely
beneficial for the development of young men and women.
Consider some of the stunts we pulled off as Boy Scouts I shudder to think
of adding girls to the mix. It might improve those winter camping trips though.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:30:39 +0100, D wrote:
Really?! Why was that? Did they have too thick skulls?
They may have had some really good drugs.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-45-acp-history-performance/
There is a theory that the Norse berserkers where getting into the psychedelics too. A little warrior enhancement is ever popular.
https://theconversation.com/what-is-the-drug-captagon-and-how-is-it- linked-to-syrias-fallen-assad-regime-245935
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:30:39 +0100, D wrote:
Really?! Why was that? Did they have too thick skulls?
They may have had some really good drugs.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-45-acp-history-performance/
There is a theory that the Norse berserkers where getting into the
psychedelics too. A little warrior enhancement is ever popular.
https://theconversation.com/what-is-the-drug-captagon-and-how-is-it-
linked-to-syrias-fallen-assad-regime-245935
Interesting! I thought the secret behind the norse berserkers, were
their militantly feminist wives. Once they managed to go on a roadtrip
(or boat trip) they could finally release all their bottled up anger! ;)
On 18/12/2024 07:09, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named 'Cheddar
Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently sailed up
the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just
as the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
Well its false anyway, and if coming from Africa Doggerland would not
have been a useful route
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:42:43 +0100, D wrote:
Yep... economy is fine. No need for private jets and business class.
But business class is so nice! Some of the 747s had the upper deck
outfitted as a lounge.
https://www.executivetraveller.com/boeing-747-bars-lounges
The last time I flew on company business I was in the last row on a flying cattle car. The cramped seating was bad enough but when we hit a little turbulence the passenger next to me stopped playing with his tablet and starting searching for a barf bag. Good times!
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:22:36 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh.. ok, now I know. "Her books and characters serve as the basis for
the internationally successful TV series Rebecka Martinsson." I've seen
an episode or two when visiting Stockholm, since my father really enjoys
criminal shows.
I didn't know it had become a TV series. Amazon has it for $18 for the
first year. I'll have to try it when I finish the 'Leverage' series.
'Leverage' is sort of apropos. It's a team of grifters and thieves that
take down people like corrupt insurance CEOs. They don't shoot them but expose them and clean out their accounts to reimburse those that they screwed.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:13:37 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/12/2024 20:28, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 11:56:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What else could they do? Kill 30% of the nation for having cheered
Hitler on? For believing in German racial supremacy and the subhuman
nature of Romanians Jews Poles and other Bolsheviks?
Considering Brits have their own opinions on subhumans
We dont have subhumans
Only pakis, wogs, and other endearing terms.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:23:54 +0100, D wrote:
No... rural, red and bible tumping generally seems to be the recipe when
it comes to finding the more free areas of the home of the brave and
land of the free.
I'm live and let live but the bible-thumping in some areas can get
intense. I had a contract in Indiana. Many of the businesses proudly announced they were good Christian businesses - as they tried to screw
you.
It's an odd state. The KKK is usually associated with the deep south but
in the '20s the Klan ran the state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Klan
It was toned down when I was there in the '80s but you didn't have to look too hard to find remnants.
There are a lot of churches in Montana and several of my friends are
active but you don't get the same feeling. Roman Catholics are the largest denomination but that's a little misleading as there are about 10,000 protestant denominations that aren't lumped together.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:53:31 +0100, D wrote:
If you ever go to Stockholm, stay within the city center, and only walk
on the well lit mainstreets at night.
I've have several friends who got mugged or assaulted at night in the
city center by the arabian gangs.
That applies to many large US cities but so far Arabs aren't the real problem. Even high profile events like the Boston Marathon bombing, while Islamist, was carried out by Chechens.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:47:01 +0100, D wrote:
There are two neobanks, Avanza and Nordnet who are just about to take
their first stumbling steps outside of the swedish market. They are
quite alright as well.
Probably the best known sort-of Swedish companies in the US are IKEA and Volvo. I guess IKEA moved to the Netherlands. I'm not sure about Volvo
these days. Then there was Saab... I had a girlfriend who drove a 96, one
of the early ones that left a cloud behind it like a chainsaw.
Then there were the art house movies like 'I Am Curious Yellow' and
Bergman's stuff. When she was 12 my wife's parents took her to see 'The Virgin Spring' under the misconception that it was some sort of Disney
nature film. I do like that one the best. So much for turn the other
cheek.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMJ58Q5fx_4
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:49:05 +0100, D wrote:
Don't trust the danish! They are very tricky people. They invaded sweden
once, and we're constantly watching them, in case they will try it
again! As for the rest, they are good people, although the norwegian are
the most lazy people on the planet.
I read an article a while back that many young Swedes went to Norway when they couldn't find work at home. They found employment peeling bananas.
https://www.ateriet.com/banos-spreadable-banana-taste-test/
I've been known to mash a banana on bread but this seems a bit extreme.
I wonder what Norway will do when the North Sea oil fields dry up?
I did find it amusing that Norway housed some of its immigrants in an off season resort -- somewhere north of the Arctic Circle. Welcome to sunny Norway!
take many forms.
And Novo Nordisk is like 60% of the economy ... one
little glitch there and .......
On 12/17/24 4:41 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:28:01 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Danes are Germans with a seasick accent.
Did you know they are so socialist that every baby has a line tattooed
on its head at birth "This way up"
The Danes improved the British gene pool.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw
Agreed there ... the old Brits were an ugly lot :-)
Actually, hard to tell what a "Brit" actually IS.
It's one of those countries occupied/invaded by
SO many entities over the ages that nobody really
has a claim.
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil
named 'Cheddar Man' - turned out to be a 'black'
African who apparently sailed up the Spanish and
finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just
as the ice age was starting to thaw.
Oldest living lines ... probably somewhere in Wales.
On 12/14/24 5:07 PM, D wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 12:20:58 +0100, D wrote:
Sounds like a good man! You should keep him!
I don't think it was 'What Color is your Parachute' but there was a book >>> from the '70s that had a punchline like 'How to hire an employer.' It's a >>> worthwhile way to think. They're not hiring you, you're finding
corporation that will provide a sales force, accountants, and all that
business cruft while you happily write code.
Many people dream of having their own business. Been there, done that, and >>> found the business part very tedious.
This is a very powerful mindset I've had my entire working life. I think
more people who are employed, should think of themselves as one man
entrepreurs, as you say, you are the one with value, and shop around as you >> would if you ran your own business.
As for having my own business, yes, the accounting is tedious, but I pay
about 400 EUR per month to get that done for me.
This is also something I tell everyone who wants to start their own
business. For the love of god, outsource all accounting as quickly as
possible.
This is a productive philosophy - assuming you have
the Right People. (Almost) independent agents can be
highly productive and inventive. It takes only a light
hand to kinda infuse them with 'the mission'.
Alas most managers, knowing they're crap, go for the
heavy dictatorial hand as psychological compensation ...
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 10:01:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/12/2024 07:09, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named 'Cheddar >>>> Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently sailed up >>>> the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just >>>> as the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
Well its false anyway, and if coming from Africa Doggerland would not
have been a useful route
Exactly why do you think he sailed from Africa? The DNA matches the
western European hunter gatherers who had be in Europe as long ago as
17,000 years BP.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161867-ancient-dark-skinned-briton- cheddar-man-find-may-not-be-true/
The rest of the article is pay walled but if you read other sources there
is waffling on the skin color although 'black' generates better headlines. Even Wikipedia is more balanced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_hunter-gatherer#Physical_appearance
When you're looking for specific alleles of SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 in ancient DNA there is room for interpretation.
https://phys.org/news/2023-08-ancient-ape-trkiye-story-human.html
Chris Stringer's Just So stories may become yesterday's news. Wolpoff and Caspari challenged that theory about 30 years ago, partially because Stringer's time line wasn't realistic.
Perhaps they will revisit the M haplogroup which has long been an anomaly. The Just So story says L3 left Africa and mutated to M subclades of which
are common in Asia, including the Indian subcontinent. Except M1, which
is found in North Africa. Did some M people on their way to Japan get homesick and go back to Africa?
When asked about beautiful women in the UK the ginger man said they are horrible, drink too much beer, get drunk and then fight each other.
Is this true?
This is the truth! I have nothing against the mormons I meet. I think
perhaps they are more afraid to discuss philosophy with me, than I am of them!
Interesting! Very few chechens in sweden. I wonder how on earth sweden managed to avoid those? I saw in the news the other day that a mosque in Gothenburg hand't out scarfs to arabian children with terrorist
propaganda against israel.
Yes, this is the important truth that all mainstream politicians of
today have completely forgotten. The first mainstream politician to rediscover this fact, will probably be a successful mainstream
politician.
Brings back good memories of debating abortion with good, honest, god
fearing republicans when I was studying one year in Chicago.
Divide and conquer! Do you not fear the the protestants will unite?
It was supposed to be amanita muscaria intoxication.
Except that doesn't make people violent
Interesting! I thought the secret behind the norse berserkers, were
their militantly feminist wives. Once they managed to go on a roadtrip
(or boat trip) they could finally release all their bottled up anger!
What is fun being an IT guy, is that apparently I do not look like I
belong in business class. So on that tedious flight to japan, I had to
go on a walk to stretch my legs. So 2-3 times I walk the length of the
plane.
I went to the back, then went to the front, and the flight attendant
stopped me, and said I had to go back to economy class and that this was
for business only.
Then I had a colleague who was ginger, and it was acceptable and
expected to make fun of him. Of course I heartily joined!
When asked about beautiful women in the UK the ginger man said they are horrible, drink too much beer, get drunk and then fight each other.
My favourite Bergman is Fanny och Alexander. Det sjunde inseglet is
quite alright as well
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
take many forms.
And Novo Nordisk is like 60% of the economy ... one
little glitch there and .......
This is the truth! Novo nordisk, maers and tuborg/carlsberg. Remove
those, and
you have removed all of denmarks economy.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named 'Cheddar
Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently sailed up
the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just as
the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
On 18/12/2024 07:09, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named 'Cheddar >>> Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently sailed up >>> the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just as >>> the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
Well its false anyway, and if coming from Africa Doggerland would not
have been a useful route
On 18/12/2024 19:11, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 10:01:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/12/2024 07:09, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named
'Cheddar
Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently
sailed up
the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just
as the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
Well its false anyway, and if coming from Africa Doggerland would not
have been a useful route
Exactly why do you think he sailed from Africa? The DNA matches the
western European hunter gatherers who had be in Europe as long ago as
17,000 years BP.
Then why call him a black African...
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161867-ancient-dark-skinned-briton-New scientist is a political magazine. It has no real scientific
cheddar-man-find-may-not-be-true/
content. Its har left antd this is probably part of some 'critical race theory' bullshit
The rest of the article is pay walled but if you read other sources thereExactly
is waffling on the skin color although 'black' generates better
headlines.
Even Wikipedia is more balanced.
Every body wandered around and banged anything that moved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_hunter-gatherer#Physical_appearance
When you're looking for specific alleles of SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 in
ancient
DNA there is room for interpretation.
https://phys.org/news/2023-08-ancient-ape-trkiye-story-human.html
Chris Stringer's Just So stories may become yesterday's news. Wolpoff and
Caspari challenged that theory about 30 years ago, partially because
Stringer's time line wasn't realistic.
Perhaps they will revisit the M haplogroup which has long been an
anomaly.
The Just So story says L3 left Africa and mutated to M subclades of which
are common in Asia, including the Indian subcontinent. Except M1, which
is found in North Africa. Did some M people on their way to Japan get
homesick and go back to Africa?
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 10:01:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/12/2024 07:09, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named 'Cheddar >>>> Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently sailed up >>>> the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just >>>> as the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
Well its false anyway, and if coming from Africa Doggerland would not
have been a useful route
Exactly why do you think he sailed from Africa? The DNA matches the
western European hunter gatherers who had be in Europe as long ago as
17,000 years BP.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161867-ancient-dark-skinned-briton- cheddar-man-find-may-not-be-true/
The rest of the article is pay walled but if you read other sources there
is waffling on the skin color although 'black' generates better headlines. Even Wikipedia is more balanced.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_hunter-gatherer#Physical_appearance
When you're looking for specific alleles of SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 in ancient DNA there is room for interpretation.
https://phys.org/news/2023-08-ancient-ape-trkiye-story-human.html
Chris Stringer's Just So stories may become yesterday's news. Wolpoff and Caspari challenged that theory about 30 years ago, partially because Stringer's time line wasn't realistic.
Perhaps they will revisit the M haplogroup which has long been an anomaly. The Just So story says L3 left Africa and mutated to M subclades of which
are common in Asia, including the Indian subcontinent. Except M1, which
is found in North Africa. Did some M people on their way to Japan get homesick and go back to Africa?
On 18/12/2024 05:05, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/17/24 4:41 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:28:01 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Danes are Germans with a seasick accent.
Did you know they are so socialist that every baby has a line tattooed >>>> on its head at birth "This way up"
The Danes improved the British gene pool.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw
Agreed there ... the old Brits were an ugly lot :-)
Actually, hard to tell what a "Brit" actually IS.
It's one of those countries occupied/invaded by
SO many entities over the ages that nobody really
has a claim.
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil
named 'Cheddar Man' - turned out to be a 'black'
African who apparently sailed up the Spanish and
finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just
as the ice age was starting to thaw.
Oldest living lines ... probably somewhere in Wales.
I think the red woman is the oldest - pre ice age.
1." Dating to around 480,000 years ago during the Middle Pleistocene,
the Boxgrove fossils are the oldest human remains discovered in the UK
and were identified as most likely belonging to the ancient human
species Homo heidelbergensis."
But not homo sap.
2." Our own species is a relative newcomer to Britain. The earliest
direct evidence is a jaw fragment found in Kent's Cavern, Devon.
Scientific analysis estimated it to be at least 40,000 years old."
No mention of skin colours or ethnicity is made and none are available.
Fair skin and blue eyes are simply adaptation to low levels of sunlight.
For thousands of years the presence of modern humans in Britain remained brief and sporadic. It has only been continuous since about 12,000 years
ago.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:49:05 +0100, D wrote:
Don't trust the danish! They are very tricky people. They invaded sweden >>> once, and we're constantly watching them, in case they will try it
again! As for the rest, they are good people, although the norwegian are >>> the most lazy people on the planet.
I read an article a while back that many young Swedes went to Norway when
they couldn't find work at home. They found employment peeling bananas.
https://www.ateriet.com/banos-spreadable-banana-taste-test/
This is the truth! Well, I don't know about the banana business, but
many low paying service jobs in norway, that the norwegians don't want
to do are filled with swedish youth, who in comparison, are seen as
diligent and hart working!
Also swedish nurses double their salaries when moving to norway, and
sweden backfills with arabians who hardly speak the language. There have
been many examples of old people not understanding what their arabian
doctor or nurse are saying.
The good thing is that the current center/nationalist government I think
made it possible for old people to demand to have a doctor they can understand. Under the previous socialist government, this was seen as
racist and possibly punished.
I've been known to mash a banana on bread but this seems a bit extreme.
I wonder what Norway will do when the North Sea oil fields dry up?
The country will collapse back into a being a small fishing village. ;)
Once norway proposed to trade part of its oil fields for shares in
Volvo. Sweden, at the height of its modern power, laughed and refused.
It makes me very sad. =(
I did find it amusing that Norway housed some of its immigrants in an off
season resort -- somewhere north of the Arctic Circle. Welcome to sunny
Norway!
Sounds just like norway! Another norwegian classic... in order to fight congestion, you can only drive in the fast lane if you're 2 people or
more during rush hour. The crafty norwegians love their au paires, and
took them with them to work, so they can save time, and then sent them
home with the car, and again to pick them up at work, so they can drive
two in the car in the fast lane!
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 19:51:53 +0100, D wrote:
This is the truth! I have nothing against the mormons I meet. I think
perhaps they are more afraid to discuss philosophy with me, than I am of
them!
Once they get past the missionary phase. It's been years since they
ventured into my part of the woods but I opened the door to find three Mormonettes. The guys go in pairs but apparently they think they need
three for the girls.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 20:20:41 +0100, D wrote:
Interesting! Very few chechens in sweden. I wonder how on earth sweden
managed to avoid those? I saw in the news the other day that a mosque in
Gothenburg hand't out scarfs to arabian children with terrorist
propaganda against israel.
They're rare in the US also.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/19/chechens-immigrants- us-population/2097065/
Other non-Arab Muslims are more prevalent.
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2019/1028/Refugees-poured-into-my-state.- Here-s-how-it-changed-me
I lived in a small Maine town for a couple of years in the late '70s.
While it sometimes seemed like a chapter out of a Stephen King novel diversity had not struck.
The Somalis were first settled in Atlanta GA which was closer to Somalia's climate than Maine but the Africans didn't get along with the African- Americans very well. It's done wonders for Leweiston's soccer team.
I'm not sure how the Somalis wound up in Minnesota. For most of the 19th
and early 20th centuries it was the target of Swedes, Norwegians, and Germans.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:22:36 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh.. ok, now I know. "Her books and characters serve as the basis for
the internationally successful TV series Rebecka Martinsson." I've seen
an episode or two when visiting Stockholm, since my father really enjoys >>> criminal shows.
I didn't know it had become a TV series. Amazon has it for $18 for the
first year. I'll have to try it when I finish the 'Leverage' series.
'Leverage' is sort of apropos. It's a team of grifters and thieves that
take down people like corrupt insurance CEOs. They don't shoot them but
expose them and clean out their accounts to reimburse those that they
screwed.
I'm currently watching Pantheon. It is animated, but I find it quite
well researched when it comes to the transhumanist theme of mind
uploading. I suspect the second season will not be as good as the first,
and towards the end the quality dropped. But it has a good start!
I think that as the weather improved a lot of people went walkabout -
resulting in a many odd mixtures that eventually blended into a
'normal'.
On 12/18/24 3:15 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:briton-
On 18/12/2024 19:11, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 10:01:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Then why call him a black African...
On 18/12/2024 07:09, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named >>>>>> 'Cheddar
Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently
sailed up
the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years
ago just as the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
Well its false anyway, and if coming from Africa Doggerland would not
have been a useful route
Exactly why do you think he sailed from Africa? The DNA matches the
western European hunter gatherers who had be in Europe as long ago as
17,000 years BP.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161867-ancient-dark-skinned-
cheddar-man-find-may-not-be-true/New scientist is a political magazine. It has no real scientific
content. Its har left antd this is probably part of some 'critical race
theory' bullshit
At least partially true ... don't take their stuff at face value,
there are clearly agendas mixed in.
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:09:13 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh... the land of the free! Try 31% in sweden or around 20% whereI am
now. Oh, and the 31% has a cap, so you only get part of that to fund
your own retirement. The rest goes to happy arabians!
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
There is a yearly maximum for the SS tax, which gets raisedfrequently. It
was nice to max out and have a few weeks without the deduction atthe end
of the year. The current cap is $168,600 so I would guess themajority of
the workers don't see those bonus weeks anymore.
On 2024-12-16, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Jesus! I thought it was only in sweden. Well, as you say it's 168k, so I >>> imagine that the majority of people in the US never hit the cap.benefits but
Of course your benefits are taxed. Some states don't tax SS
this one does so both the Feds and the state have their hands out.Then if
you have an IRA or other retirement account there is a requiredminimum
distribution yearly which is taxed when you hit 73.
Of course it is taxed! ;) And your private retirement savings are
taxed as
well, so a nice double tax. First the salary, and then you save it,
and it
is of course taxed again at withdrawal.
The salary that goes into the retirement account is NOT taxed (the
contribution is tax deductible in the year it is earned) but when you
take money out later,á the withdrawals are taxable income. Not so
unfair.
If you're content to wait until you are at least 55 to withdraw
money, you
can start a retirement foundation. The gross assets are taxed with a
flat
tax of 0.3% or so every year, regardless of if the assets shrink or
grow.
And in return you can withdraw your retirement savings for free. This is >>> not very well known, and I have never heard of a company that offers
this.
So an after-tax savings account. How is this different from an ordinary
savings account ... I guess the difference is that the interest is
tax-free? Sweden special!
The difference is that in an ordinary savings account, you put in taxed money. In this type of account, your company can put in gross earnings,
have the capital gains being taxed at only 0.3% (ish) flat fee per year,
and then when you, the employee, withdraw it, it's taxed as retirement income.
If you put in your taxed savings into a "kapitalf÷rsΣkring" you can
withdraw the money tax free, but the flat tax is higher, it's currently 0,888% for 2025.
How did you do the rb/D quoting? Do you have a script for that? It was
very beautiful.
Thing is, there have been odd genetic/physiotype mixes found from
around those times. Likely the ice melt encouraged a lot of people to
wander around.
On 12/18/24 5:00 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
For thousands of years the presence of modern humans in Britain
remained brief and sporadic. It has only been continuous since about
12,000 years ago.
Probably rates as one of the worlds "Most Invaded" places.
Don't think anybody can make a really solid "historical
claim" on England.
The last specks of Doggerland are now going under and will probably
remain that way for thousands of years unless we get another a meteor
hit and everything re-freezes.
More likely the nordics there are just more gullible -
On 18/12/2024 19:34, D wrote:
When asked about beautiful women in the UK the ginger man said they are
horrible, drink too much beer, get drunk and then fight each other.
Is this true?
It has been known....
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 19:51:53 +0100, D wrote:
This is the truth! I have nothing against the mormons I meet. I think
perhaps they are more afraid to discuss philosophy with me, than I am of
them!
Once they get past the missionary phase. It's been years since they
ventured into my part of the woods but I opened the door to find three Mormonettes. The guys go in pairs but apparently they think they need
three for the girls.
Evanston Wyoming has a rather nice historical museum. Like most of the railroad towns the Chinese played a large part. I called an exhibit to the attention of a Chinese woman that I thought might interest her. We got to talking and eventually went out to a picnic table. She asked if I knew anything about my ancestry, which I took to be a Chinese thing. Nope, she
was a Mormon and they're big on genealogy so they can retroactively
baptize their ancestors. She was headed to Salt Lake as was I and she
invited me to attend a service with her. She was cute, but I passed.
On 18/12/2024 19:09, D wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:30:39 +0100, D wrote:
Really?! Why was that? Did they have too thick skulls?
They may have had some really good drugs.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-45-acp-history-performance/ >>>
There is a theory that the Norse berserkers where getting into the
psychedelics too. A little warrior enhancement is ever popular.
https://theconversation.com/what-is-the-drug-captagon-and-how-is-it-
linked-to-syrias-fallen-assad-regime-245935
Interesting! I thought the secret behind the norse berserkers, were their
militantly feminist wives. Once they managed to go on a roadtrip (or boat
trip) they could finally release all their bottled up anger! ;)
It was supposed to be amanita muscaria intoxication.
Except that doesn't make people violent
Relief from nagging Nordic nannies sounds about right tho.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 19:11:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Henbane is one of many belladonna type compounds that mostly make people
It was supposed to be amanita muscaria intoxication.
Except that doesn't make people violent
Henbane has been mentioned too. Gruit made with henbane, marsh rosemary,
and other potentially psychoactive substances must have made for
interesting barroom fights. Supposedly the purity act substituted hops for its calming, an-aphrodisiac effects. I wonder how the IPA craze works into that?
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 20:20:41 +0100, D wrote:
Interesting! Very few chechens in sweden. I wonder how on earth sweden
managed to avoid those? I saw in the news the other day that a mosque in
Gothenburg hand't out scarfs to arabian children with terrorist
propaganda against israel.
They're rare in the US also.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/19/chechens-immigrants- us-population/2097065/
Other non-Arab Muslims are more prevalent.
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2019/1028/Refugees-poured-into-my-state.- Here-s-how-it-changed-me
I lived in a small Maine town for a couple of years in the late '70s.
While it sometimes seemed like a chapter out of a Stephen King novel diversity had not struck.
The Somalis were first settled in Atlanta GA which was closer to Somalia's climate than Maine but the Africans didn't get along with the African- Americans very well. It's done wonders for Leweiston's soccer team.
I'm not sure how the Somalis wound up in Minnesota. For most of the 19th
and early 20th centuries it was the target of Swedes, Norwegians, and Germans.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 20:17:49 +0100, D wrote:
Brings back good memories of debating abortion with good, honest, god
fearing republicans when I was studying one year in Chicago.
I avoid that topic. I will say when my wife called me at work one day and said 'I think I'm pregnant.', my first thoughts weren't 'Wonderful! I'll
be a father!' False alarm.
Divide and conquer! Do you not fear the the protestants will unite?
Not a chance. Even the mainline denominations are splitting up.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/20/united-methodist- congregations-lgbtq-same-sex-marriage-ban
That's often a factor although there can be more arcane reasons. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is the largest but there is also
the second largest Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod that goes back to 1847 with roots in the Kingdom of Saxony and ultimately goes back to how
seriously they take the 1580 'Book of Concord'.
Many of the evangelical churches are more about personalities than
theology. A friend who died last year used to fill me in on the various scandals and schisms on the local scene. His flavor was 'Smith's Friends'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunstad_Christian_Church
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 20:09:00 +0100, D wrote:
Interesting! I thought the secret behind the norse berserkers, were
their militantly feminist wives. Once they managed to go on a roadtrip
(or boat trip) they could finally release all their bottled up anger!
You may be on to something.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyd%C3%ADs_Eir%C3%ADksd%C3%B3ttir
She would make a a long trip to Miklagard very appealing. fwiw I gave up
on Netflix's reboot of 'Vikings: Valhalla' after two episodes. Freydis and Leif showing up in the fictional Kattegat run by the black female jarl
jumped more sharks than there are in the South Pacific.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 19:54:30 +0100, D wrote:
Yes, this is the important truth that all mainstream politicians of
today have completely forgotten. The first mainstream politician to
rediscover this fact, will probably be a successful mainstream
politician.
Bill Clinton got a lot of miles out of James Carville's 'It's the
economy, stupid.'
On 12/18/24 2:09 AM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named 'Cheddar >>> Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently sailed up >>> the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just as >>> the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
Possible - though Cheddar is in the southwest, long walk.
The last specks of Doggerland are now going under and will
probably remain that way for thousands of years unless we
get another a meteor hit and everything re-freezes.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 21:56:21 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The last specks of Doggerland are now going under and will probably
remain that way for thousands of years unless we get another a meteor
hit and everything re-freezes.
I'm not sure but in may have been Childers' 'The Riddle of the Sands'
where I read about the boats having twin keels so they would sit level
when the tide went out.
They play it differently on the Maine coast. If
you need to apply bottom paint or do other hull work, you find a
convenient sand flat, wait for the tide to do out, and careen the boat
over. Easily done since the tidal range is about 20' up towards Canada.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 20:34:20 +0100, D wrote:
Then I had a colleague who was ginger, and it was acceptable and
expected to make fun of him. Of course I heartily joined!
When asked about beautiful women in the UK the ginger man said they are
horrible, drink too much beer, get drunk and then fight each other.
It was a very long time ago when I read Donleavy's 'The Ginger Man'. That
put a different twist on it.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 20:12:49 +0100, D wrote:
What is fun being an IT guy, is that apparently I do not look like I
belong in business class. So on that tedious flight to japan, I had to
go on a walk to stretch my legs. So 2-3 times I walk the length of the
plane.
I went to the back, then went to the front, and the flight attendant
stopped me, and said I had to go back to economy class and that this was
for business only.
I've never fit the profile. I think it was '69 when my wife and I were
flying out of Memphis. I had a beard, ponytail, and leather jacket and she sort of looked like a hippy chick. The stewardess came back to us barely
able to suppress her giggles. "The lady up there thinks you're going to hijack the plane to Cuba. You aren't going to, are you?"
Many years later the beard and ponytail are sort of gray and I have a different leather jacket but not much else has changed.
That's my problem with the new sardine cans. I can barely walk when it's
time to deplane and that's on a two or three hour domestic flight.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 20:28:59 +0100, D wrote:
My favourite Bergman is Fanny och Alexander. Det sjunde inseglet is
quite alright as well
I've never seen 'Fanny och Alexander'. 'The Seventh Seal' was a bit
weird. I vaguely recall 'Höstsonaten' and 'Vargtimmen'. 'Jungfrukällan'
is the only one I've seen relatively recently.
Have you seen 'Kristin Lavransdatter'? I was reminded of it because of
Liv Ullmann.
On 12/18/24 2:31 PM, D wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
take many forms.
And Novo Nordisk is like 60% of the economy ... one
little glitch there and .......
This is the truth! Novo nordisk, maers and tuborg/carlsberg. Remove those, >> and
you have removed all of denmarks economy.
There's an old adage about eggs and baskets ...
At least those three industries are 'diverse', so
one COULD fail without everyone starving.
It should probably be NN since nobody there will
need Ozempic when they're half-starving :-)
On 12/18/24 5:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/12/2024 07:09, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named 'Cheddar >>>> Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently sailed up >>>> the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years ago
just as
the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
Well its false anyway, and if coming from Africa Doggerland would not
have been a useful route
It is also said he was 'west Euro' - although
that's a vague def, and the Beaker People upset
the whole equation later on. People Stuff is
always messy.
Thing is, there have been odd genetic/physiotype
mixes found from around those times. Likely the
ice melt encouraged a lot of people to wander
around.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 22:03:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Thing is, there have been odd genetic/physiotype mixes found from
around those times. Likely the ice melt encouraged a lot of people to
wander around.
Global warming! I'm pretty sure nobody was camping in my yard about 15,000 years BP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_Lake_Missoula
There are several markers on the trails at the 4200' level. It's fun to imagine a lake where the valley is.
On 12/18/24 2:24 PM, D wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:49:05 +0100, D wrote:
Don't trust the danish! They are very tricky people. They invaded sweden >>>> once, and we're constantly watching them, in case they will try it
again! As for the rest, they are good people, although the norwegian are >>>> the most lazy people on the planet.
I read an article a while back that many young Swedes went to Norway when >>> they couldn't find work at home. They found employment peeling bananas.
https://www.ateriet.com/banos-spreadable-banana-taste-test/
This is the truth! Well, I don't know about the banana business, but many
low paying service jobs in norway, that the norwegians don't want to do are >> filled with swedish youth, who in comparison, are seen as diligent and hart >> working!
Also swedish nurses double their salaries when moving to norway, and sweden >> backfills with arabians who hardly speak the language. There have been many >> examples of old people not understanding what their arabian doctor or nurse >> are saying.
The good thing is that the current center/nationalist government I think
made it possible for old people to demand to have a doctor they can
understand. Under the previous socialist government, this was seen as
racist and possibly punished.
I've been known to mash a banana on bread but this seems a bit extreme.
I wonder what Norway will do when the North Sea oil fields dry up?
The country will collapse back into a being a small fishing village. ;)
Once norway proposed to trade part of its oil fields for shares in Volvo.
Sweden, at the height of its modern power, laughed and refused. It makes me >> very sad. =(
I did find it amusing that Norway housed some of its immigrants in an off >>> season resort -- somewhere north of the Arctic Circle. Welcome to sunny
Norway!
Sounds just like norway! Another norwegian classic... in order to fight
congestion, you can only drive in the fast lane if you're 2 people or more >> during rush hour. The crafty norwegians love their au paires, and took them >> with them to work, so they can save time, and then sent them home with the >> car, and again to pick them up at work, so they can drive two in the car in >> the fast lane!
Create a System and people will immediately find ways
around it, to exploit it.
In the USA it is not unheard of to exploit multi-passenger
lanes by using an inflatable doll. Some are very lifelike
these days - prob bought from some sex site. In California
you can probably 'identify' as a sex doll and get away with
it in court :-)
On 12/18/24 3:15 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/12/2024 19:11, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 10:01:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/12/2024 07:09, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named 'Cheddar
Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently sailed up
the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years ago just
as the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
Well its false anyway, and if coming from Africa Doggerland would not
have been a useful route
Exactly why do you think he sailed from Africa? The DNA matches the
western European hunter gatherers who had be in Europe as long ago as
17,000 years BP.
Then why call him a black African...
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161867-ancient-dark-skinned-briton- >>> cheddar-man-find-may-not-be-true/New scientist is a political magazine. It has no real scientific content.
Its har left antd this is probably part of some 'critical race theory'
bullshit
At least partially true ... don't take their stuff
at face value, there are clearly agendas mixed in.
Used to take the biggies - Science and Nature - but
eventually lost the patience to read through them.
Sigma Xi's "American Scientist" is more friendly.
And FORGET "Scientific American" - first it dumbed-down
a bit and then went far left and I don't think it can be
redeemed. Extinction followed by a name-ripoff resurrection
is the only hope. Such a pity.
But ... in the CURRENT POLITICAL CLIMATE ... is it
even possible to have a relatively 'objective'
science source ? I see every color of glasses -
except Clear.
The rest of the article is pay walled but if you read other sources there >>> is waffling on the skin color although 'black' generates better headlines. >>> Even Wikipedia is more balanced.Exactly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_hunter-gatherer#Physical_appearance >>>Every body wandered around and banged anything that moved.
When you're looking for specific alleles of SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 in ancient >>> DNA there is room for interpretation.
https://phys.org/news/2023-08-ancient-ape-trkiye-story-human.html
Chris Stringer's Just So stories may become yesterday's news. Wolpoff and >>> Caspari challenged that theory about 30 years ago, partially because
Stringer's time line wasn't realistic.
Perhaps they will revisit the M haplogroup which has long been an anomaly. >>> The Just So story says L3 left Africa and mutated to M subclades of which >>> are common in Asia, including the Indian subcontinent. Except M1, which >>> is found in North Africa. Did some M people on their way to Japan get
homesick and go back to Africa?
EXACTLY ! :-)
The more they trace the 'tree' the more obvious
that becomes. The Victorians would be SHOCKED.
On 12/18/24 2:19 PM, D wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:22:36 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh.. ok, now I know. "Her books and characters serve as the basis for >>>> the internationally successful TV series Rebecka Martinsson." I've seen >>>> an episode or two when visiting Stockholm, since my father really enjoys >>>> criminal shows.
I didn't know it had become a TV series. Amazon has it for $18 for the
first year. I'll have to try it when I finish the 'Leverage' series.
'Leverage' is sort of apropos. It's a team of grifters and thieves that
take down people like corrupt insurance CEOs. They don't shoot them but
expose them and clean out their accounts to reimburse those that they
screwed.
I'm currently watching Pantheon. It is animated, but I find it quite well
researched when it comes to the transhumanist theme of mind uploading. I
suspect the second season will not be as good as the first, and towards the >> end the quality dropped. But it has a good start!
Alas, like time travel, the more you think about
'mind uploading' the more improbable it seems.
'Mind' is COMPLICATED ... and there's more than
just neurons involved. 'Mind' is an 'environment'.
As for "Robin Hoods" - there are many ways of looking
at that paradigm. Who "deserves" what ... not so easy.
Oh well, our 'family tree' looks more like an
unkempt bush ...
On 12/18/24 4:38 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 20:20:41 +0100, D wrote:
Interesting! Very few chechens in sweden. I wonder how on earth sweden
managed to avoid those? I saw in the news the other day that a mosque in >>> Gothenburg hand't out scarfs to arabian children with terrorist
propaganda against israel.
They're rare in the US also.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/19/chechens-immigrants- >> us-population/2097065/
Other non-Arab Muslims are more prevalent.
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2019/1028/Refugees-poured-into-my-state.-
Here-s-how-it-changed-me
I lived in a small Maine town for a couple of years in the late '70s.
While it sometimes seemed like a chapter out of a Stephen King novel
diversity had not struck.
The Somalis were first settled in Atlanta GA which was closer to Somalia's >> climate than Maine but the Africans didn't get along with the African-
Americans very well. It's done wonders for Leweiston's soccer team.
I'm not sure how the Somalis wound up in Minnesota. For most of the 19th
and early 20th centuries it was the target of Swedes, Norwegians, and
Germans.
Maybe they Just Like nordics ?
More likely the nordics there are just more gullible -
just like in Europe, all into 'sanctuaries' because
they think it gives them moral brownie points :-)
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 23:02:45 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/18/24 3:15 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:briton-
On 18/12/2024 19:11, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 10:01:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Then why call him a black African...
On 18/12/2024 07:09, rbowman wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:05:27 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
The first known human on the island - a cave fossil named >>>>>>> 'Cheddar
Man' - turned out to be a 'black' African who apparently >>>>>>> sailed up
the Spanish and finally English coast about 10,000 years >>>>>>> ago just as the ice age was starting to thaw.
Depending on the exact timing he may have hiked across Doggerland.
Well its false anyway, and if coming from Africa Doggerland would not >>>>> have been a useful route
Exactly why do you think he sailed from Africa? The DNA matches the
western European hunter gatherers who had be in Europe as long ago as
17,000 years BP.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2161867-ancient-dark-skinned-
cheddar-man-find-may-not-be-true/New scientist is a political magazine. It has no real scientific
content. Its har left antd this is probably part of some 'critical race
theory' bullshit
At least partially true ... don't take their stuff at face value,
there are clearly agendas mixed in.
I wasn't going to go beyond the paywall ans 12ft.io didn't work for the
site but from the teaser I was surprised they were floating out the possibility the Cheddar Man wasn't as black as painted.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 23:02:45 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/18/24 3:15 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
New scientist is a political magazine. It has no real scientific
content. Its hard left and this is probably part of some 'critical race
theory' bullshit
At least partially true ... don't take their stuff at face value,
there are clearly agendas mixed in.
I wasn't going to go beyond the paywall ans 12ft.io didn't work for the
site but from the teaser I was surprised they were floating out the possibility the Cheddar Man wasn't as black as painted.
On 12/17/24 4:34 AM, D wrote:
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, Lars Poulsen wrote:
On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:09:13 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh... the land of the free! Try 31% in sweden or around 20% where I am >>> D> now. Oh, and the 31% has a cap, so you only get part of that to fund
your own retirement. The rest goes to happy arabians!
On Mon, 16 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
There is a yearly maximum for the SS tax, which gets raisedfrequently. It
was nice to max out and have a few weeks without the deduction at the >>> end
of the year. The current cap is $168,600 so I would guess the majority >>> of
the workers don't see those bonus weeks anymore.
On 2024-12-16, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
Jesus! I thought it was only in sweden. Well, as you say it's 168k, so I >>>> imagine that the majority of people in the US never hit the cap.Then if
Of course your benefits are taxed. Some states don't tax SS benefits >>> but
this one does so both the Feds and the state have their hands out.
you have an IRA or other retirement account there is a requiredminimum
distribution yearly which is taxed when you hit 73.
Of course it is taxed! ;) And your private retirement savings are taxed >>>> as
well, so a nice double tax. First the salary, and then you save it, and >>>> it
is of course taxed again at withdrawal.
The salary that goes into the retirement account is NOT taxed (the
contribution is tax deductible in the year it is earned) but when you
take money out later,á the withdrawals are taxable income. Not so
unfair.
If you're content to wait until you are at least 55 to withdraw money, >>>> you
can start a retirement foundation. The gross assets are taxed with a flat >>>> tax of 0.3% or so every year, regardless of if the assets shrink or grow. >>>> And in return you can withdraw your retirement savings for free. This is >>>> not very well known, and I have never heard of a company that offers
this.
So an after-tax savings account. How is this different from an ordinary
savings account ... I guess the difference is that the interest is
tax-free? Sweden special!
The difference is that in an ordinary savings account, you put in taxed
money. In this type of account, your company can put in gross earnings,
have the capital gains being taxed at only 0.3% (ish) flat fee per year,
and then when you, the employee, withdraw it, it's taxed as retirement
income.
There's barely any POINT in such plans if the money is
eventually taxed (at current rates) when you finally
need it. May as well have just made an ordinary bank
savings account or similar - you will get more back
when all is said and done.
If you put in your taxed savings into a "kapitalf÷rsΣkring" you can
withdraw the money tax free, but the flat tax is higher, it's currently
0,888% for 2025.
How did you do the rb/D quoting? Do you have a script for that? It was very >> beautiful.
For thousands of years the presence of modern humans in Britain
remained brief and sporadic. It has only been continuous since about
12,000 years ago.
Probably rates as one of the worlds "Most Invaded" places.
Don't think anybody can make a really solid "historical
claim" on England.
On 12/18/24 11:28 PM, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/18/24 5:00 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
For thousands of years the presence of modern humans in Britain
remained brief and sporadic. It has only been continuous since about
12,000 years ago.
Probably rates as one of the worlds "Most Invaded" places.
Don't think anybody can make a really solid "historical
claim" on England.
Hmmm ... as for 'claims' ... how much, in what forms,
does anyone have a claim on programming code ? Some
of this stuff goes back to Turing - indeed probably
back to Babbage/Lovelace. You can re-state the ideas,
put them together a bit differently, but they're
still kind of 'stolen', 'sequels'.
Alas, like time travel, the more you think about
'mind uploading' the more improbable it seems.
'Mind' is COMPLICATED ... and there's more than
just neurons involved. 'Mind' is an 'environment'.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It was supposed to be amanita muscaria intoxication.
Except that doesn't make people violent
Yes! I always heard this as well, but as far as I've read (and heard) it results in vomiting and just feeling bad.
Relief from nagging Nordic nannies sounds about right tho.
;)
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/12/2024 19:34, D wrote:
When asked about beautiful women in the UK the ginger man said they
are horrible, drink too much beer, get drunk and then fight each other.
Is this true?
It has been known....
How sad. =(
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
On 19/12/2024 09:39, D wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It was supposed to be amanita muscaria intoxication.
Except that doesn't make people violent
Yes! I always heard this as well, but as far as I've read (and heard) it
results in vomiting and just feeling bad.
Er no. And the vomiting is absent if you drink the urine of someone or something - reindeer will do - that has eaten the shroom.
Apparently visions of Asgard etc.
https://erowid.org/plants/amanitas/amanitas_writings4.shtml#part_two
Relief from nagging Nordic nannies sounds about right tho. >> >> ;)
On 19/12/2024 09:51, D wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
In Europe that works OK - at least city to city.
I live in E of England, . my sister lives in W Germany near the Moselle. She gave a birthday party for her husbands 80th.
I drove all the way with a ferry crossing
My nephew took the Eurostar from London and hired a car.
My cousin took a plane and hired a car.
The door to door journey times were almost identical
OTOH if you want to get from central Glasgow to Central London a plane and train is by far the quickest.
Not so much security on what is essentially a commuter flight
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/12/2024 09:39, D wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It was supposed to be amanita muscaria intoxication.
Except that doesn't make people violent
Yes! I always heard this as well, but as far as I've read (and heard)
it results in vomiting and just feeling bad.
Er no. And the vomiting is absent if you drink the urine of someone or
something - reindeer will do - that has eaten the shroom.
Have not tried. Please let me know if you do!
Apparently visions of Asgard etc.
https://erowid.org/plants/amanitas/amanitas_writings4.shtml#part_two
What happens if you eat a fly agaric?
Table of contents show
It is part of the genus Amanita, which contains both edible and very poisonous species. The red fly agaric is moderately poisonous.
Consumption can cause a variety of symptoms, ranging from nausea and sweating, to euphoria and hallucinations. Deaths are extremely rare, but
have occurred.
Can you die from eating a fly agaric?
The mushroom is poisonous!
Ingestion can cause dizziness, confusion, anxiety, decreased
consciousness and in severe cases convulsions. Sometimes nausea and
vomiting occur. These symptoms are not life-threatening but may require observation and treatment in hospital.
Manchester was nice, but it was raining all the time.
Er no. And the vomiting is absent if you drink the urine of someone or something - reindeer will do - that has eaten the shroom.
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 22:03:07 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:On one of our RV trips to Montana and the Pacific Nortwest we visited
Thing is, there have been odd genetic/physiotype mixes found from
around those times. Likely the ice melt encouraged a lot of people to
wander around.
Global warming! I'm pretty sure nobody was camping in my yard about 15,000 years BP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_Lake_Missoula
There are several markers on the trails at the 4200' level. It's fun to imagine a lake where the valley is.
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
What a missed opportunity! Imagine you now, 4 wifes, 40 children!
On 19/12/2024 15:01, D wrote:
Manchester was nice, but it was raining all the time.
"Canada is all right, just not for the *whole* weekend" :-)
Stuff Manchester, It always rains.
Do do Ireland and Wales, but at leasts they have nice greenery to look
at.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter (to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the train
with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
Yes... it's absolutely horrible. Add to that, for a guy with problems
with authorities like me, the eternal hassles with retarded security, ID controls, arbitrary rules and regulations, and just the general unpleasantness of the planes and seats themselves, it's a nightmare!
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
(to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
On 19/12/2024 15:01, D wrote:
Manchester was nice, but it was raining all the time.
"Canada is all right, just not for the *whole* weekend" :-)
Stuff Manchester, It always rains.
Do do Ireland and Wales, but at leasts they have nice greenery to look at.
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
(to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:42:45 +0100, D wrote:
What a missed opportunity! Imagine you now, 4 wifes, 40 children!
A character, Seldom Seen Smith in Ed Abbey's 'The Monkey Wrench Gang' made good use of that. You spread the wives throughout Utah so you always have
a home as you wander around.
One wife was quite enough, thank you.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 15:35:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/12/2024 15:01, D wrote:
Manchester was nice, but it was raining all the time.
"Canada is all right, just not for the *whole* weekend" :-)
Stuff Manchester, It always rains.
Do do Ireland and Wales, but at leasts they have nice greenery to look
at.
People in the US of Irish descent have some compulsion to return to the
'Auld Sod'. After a friend returned I asked him how it was. 'Green! It
should be green. It rains all the fucking time!'
I can only speculate why my people left Germany. There was no family lore about the old country and no one had an interest in returning. That's not
to say they weren't proud of their ethnicity.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:51:43 +0100, D wrote:
Yes... it's absolutely horrible. Add to that, for a guy with problems
with authorities like me, the eternal hassles with retarded security, ID
controls, arbitrary rules and regulations, and just the general
unpleasantness of the planes and seats themselves, it's a nightmare!
Somehow I always get randomly selected. I thought I had it nailed once, no knives, guns, nail clippers, grenades, or other objects on my person. I
found the dress shoes I was wearing had steel shanks.
Haha, brilliant! I assume there must have been a chinese jarl as well?
My wife gets very annoyed when they populate historical dramas with
black,
yellow or red people who have no business appearing in 17:th century
europe at the top of society.
What about lord of the rings? Have there poped up versions with chinese
trans elves yet?
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/12/2024 15:01, D wrote:
Manchester was nice, but it was raining all the time.
"Canada is all right, just not for the *whole* weekend" :-)
Stuff Manchester, It always rains.
Do do Ireland and Wales, but at leasts they have nice greenery to look
at.
And probably more sheep!
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 16:28:55 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter (to
prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the train
with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
I wondered about that. I haven't taken a train in over 40 years. I would
have to drive 135 miles to get to a passenger train station.
Train stations are for nerds! Real men jump from a moving car to the
moving train!
I always thought about starting a mega-church. Seems like a nice
business!
I wonder if the time has passed, or if there are any fairly recent mega churches started by some elite psychologist?
On one of our RV trips to Montana and the Pacific Nortwest we visited
the National Bison Range north of Missoula. The road winds around and
over some pretty good hills. High up on one of the hills is a roadside
sign saying words to the effect of: "you are looking over the Mission
Valley to the southern Mission Mountains. 15,000 years ago, you would be looking over a vast lake, probably with floating icebergs." Quite
impressive; the valley was hu-u-ge.
Probably too much mammoth meat in the diet...
Yes... it is the weirdness and the symbology that appeals to me! =)
Have you seen 'Kristin Lavransdatter'? I was reminded of it because of
Liv Ullmann.
No, never seen or read. But I think there is a famous cheese brand from Gudbrandsdalen, maybe, it does ring a bell!
On 19/12/2024 16:28, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:Pretty much the same in Europe except you may need to show passports
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
(to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
when crossing some national boundaries.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
(to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
This is very promising! I imagine they have a very beautiful restaurant
where you can enjoy a glass of champagne, and perhaps a delicious 3 course meal as well? =D
Or maybe it is the swedish version, where you get to enjoy an old, plastic wrapped sandwich? ;)
Well some folks will always dream of 'racial purity' till they get their
DNA analysed.
I dread to think where my ancestors were from.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:26:17 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Er no. And the vomiting is absent if you drink the urine of someone or
something - reindeer will do - that has eaten the shroom.
That was the original trickle down effect. Hopefully it worked better than
it ever did in economics.
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
I cannot recall that in that book. Nor can I recall that being anything normal in European boatbuilding of open sea vessels
The atlantic coasts have extreme tidal ranges. But the Baltic and Mediterranean do not
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 19/12/2024 16:28, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:Pretty much the same in Europe except you may need to show passports
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
(to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
when crossing some national boundaries.
Assuming any of the "train routes" the US does have enter either Mexico
or Canada, I'd assume we would have to do the same here. But within
the lower 48, there's no "state border checkpoints" between states.
On 2024-12-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Some people like to travel by train because it combines
the slowness of a car with the cramped public exposure
of an airplane. -- Dennis Miller
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 09:56:45 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Probably too much mammoth meat in the diet...
Yeah, the experts recently concluded the environmentally sensitive Native American ate all the megafauna in North America before starting on the smaller stuff.
Irish left because it was better than dying of starvation in a massively overpopulated country.
Many N Europeans left because they were simply too pious to be
tolerated. As where the original pilgrim fathers.
English left because they were second sons and had no estates, but they
had enough to buy them in the Americas.
Italians probably left to escape poverty, like the Irish.
Hmm... was it around 1940:ish?
On our next trip we drove to Bellingham, cleared customs on the road,
and left our car in a cheap long-term lot across the street from the
station. Much faster.
Train stations are for nerds! Real men jump from a moving car to the
moving train!
It's the ponytail. Always the ponytail.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
(to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
This is very promising! I imagine they have a very beautiful restaurant
where you can enjoy a glass of champagne, and perhaps a delicious 3
course meal as well? =D
Or maybe it is the swedish version, where you get to enjoy an old,
plastic wrapped sandwich? ;)
For the "tourist train" across the great plains and up into the Rockies (who's main purpose seems to be many days of very senic views from the
train windows) I think the "sales material" shows dining car fare for
most passengers. Never having ridden it I can't say for sure.
following this logic, the Army provided free ammunition to hide
hunters, who brought bison to the brink of extinction.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 09:56:45 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Probably too much mammoth meat in the diet...
Yeah, the experts recently concluded the environmentally sensitive Native American ate all the megafauna in North America before starting on the smaller stuff.
Isn't it strange how people have rejected the idea of God, but kept the
idea of Original Sin?
Charlie Gibbs wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
On 2024-12-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Some people like to travel by train because it combines
the slowness of a car with the cramped public exposure
of an airplane. -- Dennis Miller
My dad took us (I and my sister) on train trips. I remember in the
dining car being asked if I wanted a Continental Breakfast. My kid's
mind imagined a breakfast feast, with eggs and sausage or bacon.
Bleh, it was a pastry. :-(
Similar with my mother. She asked if I wanted a "pine float". I
imagined a nice soda with ice cream and whipped cream.... It
was a toothpick floating on a glass of water. She cackled.
ObLinux:
Grepping for FLT_MAX, partial list:
/usr/include/values.h:#define MAXFLOAT FLT_MAX
/usr/include/values.h:#define FMAXEXP FLT_MAX_EXP
Now look for defines of FLT_MAX.
On 19/12/2024 05:00, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Alas, like time travel, the more you think about
'mind uploading' the more improbable it seems.
'Mind' is COMPLICATED ... and there's more than
just neurons involved. 'Mind' is an 'environment'.
Ah. The 'Akashic Records' were all the rage in the early/mid 20th
century. The place where all minds are uploaded after death. Or
something. Google it.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 12/18/24 2:19 PM, D wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 17 Dec 2024 10:22:36 +0100, D wrote:
Ahh.. ok, now I know. "Her books and characters serve as the basis for >>>>> the internationally successful TV series Rebecka Martinsson." I've
seen
an episode or two when visiting Stockholm, since my father really
enjoys
criminal shows.
I didn't know it had become a TV series. Amazon has it for $18 for the >>>> first year. I'll have to try it when I finish the 'Leverage' series.
'Leverage' is sort of apropos. It's a team of grifters and thieves that >>>> take down people like corrupt insurance CEOs. They don't shoot them but >>>> expose them and clean out their accounts to reimburse those that they
screwed.
I'm currently watching Pantheon. It is animated, but I find it quite
well researched when it comes to the transhumanist theme of mind
uploading. I suspect the second season will not be as good as the
first, and towards the end the quality dropped. But it has a good start!
Alas, like time travel, the more you think about
'mind uploading' the more improbable it seems.
'Mind' is COMPLICATED ... and there's more than
just neurons involved. 'Mind' is an 'environment'.
This is the truth! I like transhumanists as much as the next guy, but sometimes I think their technology optimists comes too close to religion
for my comfort.
Yes, I see no reason that should make uploading impossible, in theory,
but we have no clue about how the mind works, so there could be plenty
of reasons it won't work. Add to that the enormous quantum leap (or
multiple quantum leaps) in technology, before being able to even
physically replicate it. But with the religious, once I try that conversational track, I am shouted down and bood. =(
So basically, they extrapolate from 1 + 1 = 2, to a billion trillion and often handwave away the steps in between. That is what makes some of
them religious in my opinion.
As for "Robin Hoods" - there are many ways of looking
at that paradigm. Who "deserves" what ... not so easy.
Robin Hoods? You mean stealing from the government and giving to the
people? The eternal libertarian hero?
On 19/12/2024 17:24, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 15:35:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/12/2024 15:01, D wrote:
Manchester was nice, but it was raining all the time.
"Canada is all right, just not for the *whole* weekend" :-)
Stuff Manchester, It always rains.
Do do Ireland and Wales, but at leasts they have nice greenery to look
at.
People in the US of Irish descent have some compulsion to return to the
'Auld Sod'. After a friend returned I asked him how it was. 'Green! It
should be green. It rains all the fucking time!'
I can only speculate why my people left Germany. There was no family lore
about the old country and no one had an interest in returning. That's not
to say they weren't proud of their ethnicity.
Irish left because it was better than dying of starvation in a massively overpopulated country.
Many N Europeans left because they were simply too pious to be tolerated. As where the original pilgrim fathers.
English left because they were second sons and had no estates, but they had enough to buy them in the Americas.
Italians probably left to escape poverty, like the Irish.
On 19/12/2024 04:28, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
For thousands of years the presence of modern humans in Britain
remained brief and sporadic. It has only been continuous since about
12,000 years ago.
Probably rates as one of the worlds "Most Invaded" places.
Don't think anybody can make a really solid "historical
claim" on England.
I think that goes for most of Europe - at least the warmer more central
parts and the Mediterranean.
They got the Indo-Europeans while the Nordics got the blond blue eyed
lot and where they met, redheads...
...and then Ghengis Khan, probably the greatest genocidal psychopath in history, spread his guy's genes all over the place.
The origins of Native Americans - especially S Americans, is still
being worked on.
On 19/12/2024 18:02, D wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/12/2024 15:01, D wrote:And probably more sheep!
Manchester was nice, but it was raining all the time.
"Canada is all right, just not for the *whole* weekend" :-)
Stuff Manchester, It always rains.
Do do Ireland and Wales, but at leasts they have nice greenery to look at. >>
Of the 4 legged variety, assuredly. And as we discussed, very good eating
However there is ONE group - the Basques - who seem to have come
quite early and were not over-run.
On 19/12/2024 18:07, D wrote:
Train stations are for nerds! Real men jump from a moving car to the moving >> train!
Not really possible in the UK.
Most trains have doors that can only be opened by the driver, and most railways are fenced off from roads...
..when I was about 7, two twins used to travel by rail. One of them was leaning out of the door window when he other one opened it for a prank.
Killed instantly. we never heard or saw either of them again.
That carriage style was retired about 10 years later
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:49:37 +0100, D wrote:
Haha, brilliant! I assume there must have been a chinese jarl as well?
My wife gets very annoyed when they populate historical dramas with
black,
yellow or red people who have no business appearing in 17:th century
europe at the top of society.
But, but... I have the DVD set of James Levine's Ring Cycle at the Metropolitan Opera in '89. Jessye Norman has the Sieglinde and somehow
didn't look like Siegmund's twin. Opera at least has the excuse that you
need someone who can sing. Hildegard Behrens played Brünnhilde and while
she did her best one of the criticisms was she was a bit long in the tooth for the role.
Levine has a few cameos on the DVD and looked greasy. I wasn't surprised
when he was fired over allegations he had abused some young men.
What about lord of the rings? Have there poped up versions with chinese
trans elves yet?
Amazon's 'Rings of Power' does have someone who isn't exactly a Light Elf.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismael_Cruz_C%C3%B3rdova
I haven't watched it but it didn't get very good reviews. The kindest say
the scenery is beautiful but the acting stunk.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:46:52 +0100, D wrote:
I always thought about starting a mega-church. Seems like a nice
business!
I wonder if the time has passed, or if there are any fairly recent mega
churches started by some elite psychologist?
There isn't enough population to really go mega but a church I pass on the way to town has aspirations. It sends out colorful postcards and has signboards on its property promoting activities.
https://crosspointmt.com/plan-a-visit
They don't go in for quantity but my friend who kept track of locals said when they built a new church the Slavic Pentacostals wanted to have the biggest church in town in terms of square feet. I drive by and it
sometimes has a well filled parking lot. They are low key but there are a surprising number of Slavs in town, mostly Russians I think.
On 2024-12-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Some people like to travel by train because it combines
the slowness of a car with the cramped public exposure
of an airplane. -- Dennis Miller
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
(to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
This is very promising! I imagine they have a very beautiful restaurant
where you can enjoy a glass of champagne, and perhaps a delicious 3 course >> meal as well? =D
Or maybe it is the swedish version, where you get to enjoy an old, plastic >> wrapped sandwich? ;)
That largely depends on the 'ticket class' one purchases and/or the
actual route one takes. For the "auto-train" between Orlando Fla. and
DC the coach seats have access to the "swedish version" and/or whatever
one wishes to carry on-board.
For the "sleeper cabin" tickets on the same train (of which there's
only about 20 or so available per train) those come with dinners in the 'dining car' where one can sit at a table (more similar to a "diner
table" than a 5-star table) and get, technically, a three course meal. Overall reasonable food, although limited selection (due to being "on a train...").
For the "tourist train" across the great plains and up into the Rockies (who's main purpose seems to be many days of very senic views from the
train windows) I think the "sales material" shows dining car fare for
most passengers. Never having ridden it I can't say for sure.
For the 'commuting trains' that run up and down the northeast corridor (DC/Philly/NY/etc.) there's only the basic "old plastic wrapped
sandwich" option, but as one's only on those for a few hours at most
that's no big deal (better fare is available at the destination from
many local restaurants).
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:54:20 +0100, D wrote:
Yes... it is the weirdness and the symbology that appeals to me! =)
That's what I like about 'JungfrukΣllan'. I prefer Ingeri to the sweet
little Christian and as T÷re agonizes over killing the bastards I'm
thinking 'get on with it.'
I haven't seen the remake but 'The Last House on the Left' was a '70s low budget horror film that updated the story.
Have you seen 'Kristin Lavransdatter'? I was reminded of it because of
Liv Ullmann.
No, never seen or read. But I think there is a famous cheese brand from
Gudbrandsdalen, maybe, it does ring a bell!
It's very famous -- in Norway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Lavransdatter_(film)
It's three hours which is the kiss of death in this market since the era where films like 'Gone With the Wind' had intermissions. I thought I would watch it in two sessions but wound up staying up past my bedtime. Ullmann
was adamant that she needed three hours and refused to cut it.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 18:03:14 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Irish left because it was better than dying of starvation in a massively
overpopulated country.
Many N Europeans left because they were simply too pious to be
tolerated. As where the original pilgrim fathers.
English left because they were second sons and had no estates, but they
had enough to buy them in the Americas.
Italians probably left to escape poverty, like the Irish.
Technically they weren't Germans since the country didn't exist but there
has been a German presence in the US from almost the beginning. It didn't last long but Ben Franklin published 'Philadelphische Zeitung' in 1732,
the first German language newspaper in the colonies.
A couple of events may have resulted in a surge. If you were on the wrong side in 1848 a sea voyage would look good. Bismarck's KulturKampf in
Prussia could persuade Catholics that there were greener pastures. The stubborn ones formed the Centre party.
In the US the Germans and Irish worked well together. The Germans took
care of business while the Irish provided the politicians and cops. That seemed to apply in Europe too, given Roger Casement's little scheme.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:06:59 +0100, D wrote:
Hmm... was it around 1940:ish?
Way before that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans
I definitely know one great-something grandfather fought in the Civil War.
As far as I could trace back through fragmentary records another was
around during the Revolutionary War. The source said he moved out in the country since he was a Loyalist.
It wasn't their best work but Orson Welles directed a movie, 'The
Stranger' with Edward G. Robinson. Robinson is an agent hunting a Nazi war criminal. The criminal has integrated into a small town and doesn't
trigger suspicion. Over the dinner table the criminal says Germans are a threat to the world and the Robinson character counters saying Germans
like Marx made a positive contribution. The Nazi says that Marx was a Jew
and can't possibly a German, blowing his cover nicely.
The US wasn't all that welcoming in that era unless you were some sort of rock star.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/voyage-of-the-st-louis
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:07:53 +0100, D wrote:
Train stations are for nerds! Real men jump from a moving car to the
moving train!
Most of the trains that come through here are coal cars. Not the best of accommodations. We do have two passenger stations that are being used for other purposes. Apparently 'if you build it they'll come' doesn't apply to trains.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:06:04 +0100, D wrote:
It's the ponytail. Always the ponytail.
This town is overflowing with old men with beards and ponytails. I don't
know how many times an utter stranger has come up and started a
conversation assuming they knew me. We all look the same.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:03:59 +0100, D wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
(to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
This is very promising! I imagine they have a very beautiful restaurant
where you can enjoy a glass of champagne, and perhaps a delicious 3
course meal as well? =D
Or maybe it is the swedish version, where you get to enjoy an old,
plastic wrapped sandwich? ;)
If you're very, very lucky. There is a group in Indiana that had restored
an old steam engine and takes it out for a spin every now and then for
fund raisers They also have period cars and volunteers do serve beverages
and meals. As a bonus the destination was Peru IN and the Circus Hall of Fame.
A couple of times I took Amtrak from Ft. Wayne to Chicago. It was a difference experience. Amtrak on the Boston to DC corridor gets a lot of love; other areas not so much.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 03:56:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Isn't it strange how people have rejected the idea of God, but kept the
idea of Original Sin?
It's hard to get beyond good and evil.
On 12/19/24 4:30 PM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
Charlie Gibbs wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
On 2024-12-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Some people like to travel by train because it combines
the slowness of a car with the cramped public exposure
of an airplane. -- Dennis Miller
My dad took us (I and my sister) on train trips. I remember in the
dining car being asked if I wanted a Continental Breakfast. My kid's
mind imagined a breakfast feast, with eggs and sausage or bacon.
Bleh, it was a pastry. :-(
Obviously not a 'luxury' train :-)
The old Orient Express was reputed to offer better,
but it catered mostly to wealthier clients.
There IS a certain niceness to train travel - seems
more 'organic' than planes, the rhythm of the tracks.
Alas, in the USA, the tracks tend to be poorly maintained.
Derailment is always possible. Euro rail is likely much
more reliable.
Similar with my mother. She asked if I wanted a "pine float". I
imagined a nice soda with ice cream and whipped cream.... It
was a toothpick floating on a glass of water. She cackled.
ObLinux:
Grepping for FLT_MAX, partial list:
/usr/include/values.h:#define MAXFLOAT FLT_MAX
/usr/include/values.h:#define FMAXEXP FLT_MAX_EXP
Now look for defines of FLT_MAX.
just neurons involved. 'Mind' is an 'environment'.
This is the truth! I like transhumanists as much as the next guy, but
sometimes I think their technology optimists comes too close to religion
for my comfort.
Religions and related philosophies often think of
some kind of magical 'essence of being' that can
drift around. It's from the dark ages and beyond.
Great for horror movie plots though.
Quite often we see papers describing how any of dozens
of 'helper' cells are modulating neuron activity on
the large and small scale. Some have neuron-ish qualities
unto themselves. The big blob of meat is a UNIT. You can
digitize the fine state of every neuron and you'll just
get an infunctional MESS on the other end.
It's kinda All Or Nothing. We're not built like
computers - 'evo-goo' instead.
(hey, I *like* that term and officially claim it :-)
Yes, I see no reason that should make uploading impossible, in theory, but >> we have no clue about how the mind works, so there could be plenty of
reasons it won't work. Add to that the enormous quantum leap (or multiple
quantum leaps) in technology, before being able to even physically
replicate it. But with the religious, once I try that conversational track, >> I am shouted down and bood. =(
IM-possible, no - but you're not just gonna do some
kind of fancy MRI and transport a "mind" into any
one or any thing.
So basically, they extrapolate from 1 + 1 = 2, to a billion trillion and
often handwave away the steps in between. That is what makes some of them
religious in my opinion.
It's the 'hand-wave' thing that sunk the first AI paradigm.
Marv Minsky (who posted on usenet for awhile) and friends
saw how easily 'decisions' could be done with a transistor
or two and assumed it would thus be easy to build an AI.
AC Clarke used the Minsky optimism when fashioning the
idea of "HAL".
But it all imploded. Turned out there were billions of
steps between input and that final, transistor-like,
decision. A photo-lightswitch is not 'intelligent'.
As for "Robin Hoods" - there are many ways of looking
at that paradigm. Who "deserves" what ... not so easy.
Robin Hoods? You mean stealing from the government and giving to the
people? The eternal libertarian hero?
Um ... more 'commie' hero ....
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 03:56:53 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Isn't it strange how people have rejected the idea of God, but kept the
idea of Original Sin?
It's hard to get beyond good and evil.
However there is ONE group - the Basques - who seem
to have come quite early and were not over-run.
The origins of Native Americans - especially S Americans, is still
being worked on.
"Siberian", more or less, with some N.Chinese probably
mixed in. In S.Am they also found some Polynesian
long in the mix ... apparently sailed over then went
across the mountains into the jungle area.
BUT, look at those giant stone Olmec heads ... that's
clear central African.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
just neurons involved. 'Mind' is an 'environment'.
This is the truth! I like transhumanists as much as the next guy, but
sometimes I think their technology optimists comes too close to
religion for my comfort.
Religions and related philosophies often think of
some kind of magical 'essence of being' that can
drift around. It's from the dark ages and beyond.
Great for horror movie plots though.
So you don't think that we are all god, living in god, being gods parts and components? ;)
course).Quite often we see papers describing how any of dozens
of 'helper' cells are modulating neuron activity on
the large and small scale. Some have neuron-ish qualities
unto themselves. The big blob of meat is a UNIT. You can
digitize the fine state of every neuron and you'll just
get an infunctional MESS on the other end.
It's kinda All Or Nothing. We're not built like
computers - 'evo-goo' instead.
(hey, I *like* that term and officially claim it :-)
Well, I see nothing that says we wouldn't be able to live in another
kind of substrate if everything was simulated, but I find the
philosophical questions of if it would really be _us_ more
interesting (assuming it works, of
I'm in the camp believing that if everything worked, and you have an
uploaded intelligence that for all intents and purposes acts like
you, it wouldn't be you. I like conscious continuity, but many
transhumanists do not require that or believe that.
Yes, I see no reason that should make uploading impossible, in
theory, but we have no clue about how the mind works, so there could
be plenty of reasons it won't work. Add to that the enormous quantum
leap (or multiple quantum leaps) in technology, before being able to
even physically replicate it. But with the religious, once I try that
conversational track, I am shouted down and bood. =(
IM-possible, no - but you're not just gonna do some
kind of fancy MRI and transport a "mind" into any
one or any thing.
Come on! You're being so negative. Show some faith!! ;) For me, the
big problem is that we don't (yet) know how to mind works and even
what consciousness is, so how can we replicate it?
So basically, they extrapolate from 1 + 1 = 2, to a billion trillion
and often handwave away the steps in between. That is what makes some
of them religious in my opinion.
It's the 'hand-wave' thing that sunk the first AI paradigm.
Marv Minsky (who posted on usenet for awhile) and friends
saw how easily 'decisions' could be done with a transistor
or two and assumed it would thus be easy to build an AI.
AC Clarke used the Minsky optimism when fashioning the
idea of "HAL".
But it all imploded. Turned out there were billions of
steps between input and that final, transistor-like,
decision. A photo-lightswitch is not 'intelligent'.
But now we have LLM:s! ;) What I find interesting is how different
people view them. I find the free ones you can play with online to be incredibly boring. I use them as a kind of search engine on steroids
for stuff that is not important (for entertainment purposes).
I would not trust them for anything business, there I must check
manually to make sure all is correct.
Then you have people who fall in love with their LLM. I find that
incredible! Would they have fallen in love with Eliza?
As for "Robin Hoods" - there are many ways of looking
at that paradigm. Who "deserves" what ... not so easy.
Robin Hoods? You mean stealing from the government and giving to the
people? The eternal libertarian hero?
Um ... more 'commie' hero ....
Ahh... that spin of Robin Hood. It is not so good. =/ I read two of
the older editions Pyle and McFadden (I think) and there he seemed to
be more libertarian/anarchist than commie, always fighting the
state.
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
However there is ONE group - the Basques - who seem to have come
quite early and were not over-run.
The local language does seem to have been resistant to replacement for a
few thousand years. However the population genetics is rather less
static, with almost complete Y-chromosome replacement by R1b-M269 after 2000BCE.
See e.g. Olalde et al, The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over
the past 8000 years.
Sad, but if the world was adapted according to child safety and to
shield us from darwinism, it would quickly become a boring world. Hmm... actually... ;)
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Some people like to travel by train because it combines
the slowness of a car with the cramped public exposure
of an airplane. -- Dennis Miller
Brilliant!
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:07:53 +0100, D wrote:
Train stations are for nerds! Real men jump from a moving car to the
moving train!
Most of the trains that come through here are coal cars. Not the best of
accommodations. We do have two passenger stations that are being used for
other purposes. Apparently 'if you build it they'll come' doesn't
apply to
trains.
All it takes is patience. Just wait and see! ;)
On 20/12/2024 09:18, D wrote:
Sad, but if the world was adapted according to child safety and to shield
us from darwinism, it would quickly become a boring world. Hmm...
actually... ;)
That is the major difference between the post war period I grew up in, and today, in terms of world-view and psychology.
We understood the world to be a dangerous place, and food and personal hygiene were stressed, not antibiotics and socialised medicine. Also staying alert and being observant and quick thinking were typical 'boy scout' lessons.
Road furniture was designed to raise situational awareness, not to dictate driving behaviour.
We were warned not to accept sweets or rides from strange men, (or women).
And so on.
On 20/12/2024 09:57, D wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
just neurons involved. 'Mind' is an 'environment'.
This is the truth! I like transhumanists as much as the next guy, but
sometimes I think their technology optimists comes too close to religion >>>> for my comfort.
Religions and related philosophies often think of
some kind of magical 'essence of being' that can
drift around. It's from the dark ages and beyond.
Great for horror movie plots though.
So you don't think that we are all god, living in god, being gods parts and >> components? ;)
Well that's Spinoza's hypothesis.
What you term the material world is just 'God, made manifest'
No more demented than any other metaphysical position.
course).Quite often we see papers describing how any of dozens
of 'helper' cells are modulating neuron activity on
the large and small scale. Some have neuron-ish qualities
unto themselves. The big blob of meat is a UNIT. You can
digitize the fine state of every neuron and you'll just
get an infunctional MESS on the other end.
It's kinda All Or Nothing. We're not built like
computers - 'evo-goo' instead.
(hey, I *like* that term and officially claim it :-)
Well, I see nothing that says we wouldn't be able to live in another kind
of substrate if everything was simulated, but I find the
philosophical questions of if it would really be _us_ more
interesting (assuming it works, of
Well yes. The human experience seems to be that of a consciousness bolted on to an unruly animal. And most religions seem to be a process of denying or repressing that, whereas the happier people simply accept there are two people inside them and try and reach an accommodation.
I'm in the camp believing that if everything worked, and you have anThe position is simply the old idea of 'soul' rehashed into IT terms. The point is that there is the animal self, that it coexists with (or for you, from whence consciousness emerges)
uploaded intelligence that for all intents and purposes acts like
you, it wouldn't be you. I like conscious continuity, but many
transhumanists do not require that or believe that.
Without that bag of biochemistry you wouldn't be what you are.
It might be life, but not as we know it, Jim.
We have done precisely that in creating computers. They mimic our logical processes.Yes, I see no reason that should make uploading impossible, in theory, >>>> but we have no clue about how the mind works, so there could be plenty of >>>> reasons it won't work. Add to that the enormous quantum leap (or multiple >>>> quantum leaps) in technology, before being able to even physically
replicate it. But with the religious, once I try that conversational
track, I am shouted down and bood. =(
IM-possible, no - but you're not just gonna do some
kind of fancy MRI and transport a "mind" into any
one or any thing.
Come on! You're being so negative. Show some faith!! ;) For me, the
big problem is that we don't (yet) know how to mind works and even
what consciousness is, so how can we replicate it?
So basically, they extrapolate from 1 + 1 = 2, to a billion trillion and >>>> often handwave away the steps in between. That is what makes some of them >>>> religious in my opinion.
It's the 'hand-wave' thing that sunk the first AI paradigm.
Marv Minsky (who posted on usenet for awhile) and friends
saw how easily 'decisions' could be done with a transistor
or two and assumed it would thus be easy to build an AI.
AC Clarke used the Minsky optimism when fashioning the
idea of "HAL".
But it all imploded. Turned out there were billions of
steps between input and that final, transistor-like,
decision. A photo-lightswitch is not 'intelligent'.
But now we have LLM:s! ;) What I find interesting is how different people
view them. I find the free ones you can play with online to be
incredibly boring. I use them as a kind of search engine on steroids
for stuff that is not important (for entertainment purposes).
I would not trust them for anything business, there I must check manually
to make sure all is correct.
*shrug* many people used to look it up in the Bible.
Then you have people who fall in love with their LLM. I find that
incredible! Would they have fallen in love with Eliza?
Id fall in love with any AI that could actually understand me :-)
As for "Robin Hoods" - there are many ways of looking
at that paradigm. Who "deserves" what ... not so easy.
Robin Hoods? You mean stealing from the government and giving to the
people? The eternal libertarian hero?
Um ... more 'commie' hero ....
Ahh... that spin of Robin Hood. It is not so good. =/ I read two of
the older editions Pyle and McFadden (I think) and there he seemed to
be more libertarian/anarchist than commie, always fighting the
state.
Robin Hood, the Green man, Tom Bombadil, whatever, has always been a mythic country dweller who takes up the cause of the peasants against the ruling classes. He is a shadow of a pagan deity. The male spirit of the woods - of trees and forests and of the spring. The vital spirit that causes things to grow.
The first appearance of the Robin Hood legend seems to be in Piers Plowman, a sort of Paleo-Marxist tract from 1370 or so where the whole book is an allegory of the fight for the working class (rural peasant in those days) against the king and the church.
Definitely a 'fuck the kings deer! Whose king is he anyway? let's have some for ourselves'
The only difference between libertarianism and communism, is when each gets to power.
Libertariansims tends towards a small state and individual freedom whereas communism imposes an egalitarianism using the biggest possible State, in fact the ideal is to leave only the State and its employees.
In communism you work for the state. In libertarianism you work for yourself
On 20/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
áá Some people like to travel by train because it combines
áá the slowness of a car with the cramped public exposure
áá of an airplane.á -- Dennis Miller
Brilliant!
I am always reminded of the apocryyphal conversation between a Harley Davidson rider and one seated on a Kawasaki..
"When I am on my Kawasaki I can get to where I want to be twice as fast as you can"
"When ah am awn mah Hog, Ah AM where Ah want to be"...
But now we have LLM:s! What I find interesting is how different people
view them. I find the free ones you can play with online to be
incredibly boring. I use them as a kind of search engine on steroids for stuff that is not important (for entertainment purposes).
Many swedes left due to either being the second+ sons, or because the nobility owned all the good farm land in the area and they had to work
under slave like conditions.
Then there ofcourse where the religiious people as well, but those were
not the main swedish emigrants.
It's the 'hand-wave' thing that sunk the first AI paradigm.
Marv Minsky (who posted on usenet for awhile) and friends saw how
easily 'decisions' could be done with a transistor or two and assumed
it would thus be easy to build an AI. AC Clarke used the Minsky
optimism when fashioning the idea of "HAL".
And let us not forget the early influence of Adam Weishaupt! Just look
at your dollarbills!
Interesting! There might be a train ride on my next trip to the US. The
wife seems to be more and more interested in it, since neither of us
enjoys driving. Let's see what we decide upon. I suspect we might
actually go in late 2025.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:06:04 +0100, D wrote:
It's the ponytail. Always the ponytail.
This town is overflowing with old men with beards and ponytails. I
don't know how many times an utter stranger has come up and started a
conversation assuming they knew me. We all look the same.
Hmm, on second though, does that mean that the entire town is full of honorable and dignified Unix-men?
Many, on my mothers side of the family, have lived in the US for at
least a year or two, but all of them (me included) eventually came back
to where we came from.
All it takes is patience. Just wait and see!
Brilliant! I doubt I would fit in though. I've always had a very regular
and non-inspiring crewcut for as long as I can remember.
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:46:52 +0100, D wrote:
I always thought about starting a mega-church. Seems like a nice
business!
I wonder if the time has passed, or if there are any fairly recent
mega churches started by some elite psychologist?
There isn't enough population to really go mega but a church I pass on
the way to town has aspirations. It sends out colorful postcards and
has signboards on its property promoting activities.
https://crosspointmt.com/plan-a-visit
Very modern! My european views have warped my expectations. A church
that's less than 200 years old?? ;)
We were warned not to accept sweets or rides from strange men, (or
women).
I laugh at those 'ancestry' companies who will tell their clients
that they're "12% French" or whatever.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:57:38 +0100, D wrote:
But now we have LLM:s! What I find interesting is how different people
view them. I find the free ones you can play with online to be
incredibly boring. I use them as a kind of search engine on steroids for
stuff that is not important (for entertainment purposes).
Brave added one to the search engine but I turned it off. Might as well go straight to reddit which seems to be heavily mined.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:13:52 +0100, D wrote:
Many swedes left due to either being the second+ sons, or because the
nobility owned all the good farm land in the area and they had to work
under slave like conditions.
Then there ofcourse where the religiious people as well, but those were
not the main swedish emigrants.
I think Sweden was the last due to stricter religious laws but the LDS
church launched a Scandinavian Mission in the 1850s and the converts were encouraged to emigrate to Utah. I don't know if they told the recruits the whole story.
https://racingnelliebly.com/strange_times/handcart-pioneers-pushed-1300- miles/
That's backwards of the usual pattern like the various Anabaptist groups
that bounced around Europe before heading to America. When Russia started
to crack down on their use of German the Mennonites and Hutterites even
sent scouts. The Dakotas looked like home.
Around here Hutterite turkeys and other produce are very popular.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 01:31:30 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
It's the 'hand-wave' thing that sunk the first AI paradigm.
Marv Minsky (who posted on usenet for awhile) and friends saw how
easily 'decisions' could be done with a transistor or two and assumed
it would thus be easy to build an AI. AC Clarke used the Minsky
optimism when fashioning the idea of "HAL".
Minsky threw a wrench in the works with his 9169 'Perceptrons'. He had
tried to implement B. F. skinner's operant condition with a analog lashup that sort of worked if the vacuum tubes didn't burn out. Rosenblatt has
built a 'Perceptron' and Minsky pointed out original design couldn't
handle an XOR. That sent research down another rabbit hole.
By the '80s the original perceptron had evolved into a multilayer network train by back propagation. When I played around with it 'Parallel
Distributed Processing' by Rumelhart and McClelland was THE book.
https://direct.mit.edu/books/monograph/4424/Parallel-Distributed- Processing-Volume
The ideas were fascinating but the computing power wasn't there. Most of
what I learned then is still relevant to TensorFlow and the other neural network approaches except now there are the $30,000 Nvidia GPUs to do the heavy lifting.
The '80s neural networks weren't practical so the focus shifted to expert systems until they petered out. The boom and bust cycles led to the term
'AI Winter'
https://www.techtarget.com/searchenterpriseai/definition/AI-winter
I think something worthwhile will come from this cycle but ultimately it won't be the LLMs that are getting all the hype.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:30:36 +0100, D wrote:
Interesting! There might be a train ride on my next trip to the US. The
wife seems to be more and more interested in it, since neither of us
enjoys driving. Let's see what we decide upon. I suspect we might
actually go in late 2025.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela
The Northeast Corridor and southern California are the best bets. Outside
of that you're rolling the dice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak#/media/
File:Amtrak_network_map_2016.svg
Theoretically Amtrak trains have priority over freight trains. In practice freight pays the bills and Amtrak is a federally subsidized money sink. It makes sense in the northeast. when I worked in Boston I sometimes had to
go to New York City. By the time you get to Logan, jump through the hoops, land at JFK, and take ground transportation into the city, 4 hours from downtown Boston to downtown NY looks good. The company's travel people
didn't think that way. 'It's only an hour and a half flight.'
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:37:41 +0100, D wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:06:04 +0100, D wrote:
It's the ponytail. Always the ponytail.
This town is overflowing with old men with beards and ponytails. I
don't know how many times an utter stranger has come up and started a
conversation assuming they knew me. We all look the same.
Hmm, on second though, does that mean that the entire town is full of
honorable and dignified Unix-men?
Possibly. There was an attempt to start a Linux users group about 15 years ago but it fizzled out. Sort of like c.o.l.m it didn't attract anybody but Linux users and since we were all experienced Linux users what was there
to talk about? There were a presentations but they tended to be esoterica that didn't interest anybody but the person who brought the topic up.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:38:08 +0100, D wrote:
All it takes is patience. Just wait and see!
https://www.kpax.com/news/montana-news/montanas-southern-passenger-train- service-may-not-be-on-time
"The goal to see passenger rail in Montana by 2030 will be difficult to achieve"
There is a lot of history involved. The Great Northern railroad ran across the northern part of the state, close to the Canadian border. The area is still referred to as the Hi-Line since it was the northernmost railroad in the US. There isn't much there, but that's the Amtrak route.
https://takemytrip.com/2017/11/driving-hi-line-across-montana/
The Northern Pacific line runs through the central part of the state where people actually live.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_station_(Northern_Pacific_Railway)
Nice station. I've seen a couple of tourist trains that must have gotten lost. There is another historic station.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_station_(Milwaukee_Road)
That one is out of the question. Most of the Milwaukee Road tracks were
torn up and turned into bike paths. The Milwaukee was ahead of its time.
They electrified 438 miles from Harlowtown MT to Avery ID in 1916. That
was quite a thing since there is a 1.6 mile tunnel at St. Paul Pass. If you've ever been through a tunnel behind a steam locomotive you can appreciate the context.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:37:12 +0100, D wrote:
Brilliant! I doubt I would fit in though. I've always had a very regular
and non-inspiring crewcut for as long as I can remember.
When I was a kid it was common for kids to get a brush cut in the summer.
I got talked into it one year. I don't have the type of hair any amount of butch wax can make presentable.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:35:40 +0100, D wrote:
Many, on my mothers side of the family, have lived in the US for at
least a year or two, but all of them (me included) eventually came back
to where we came from.
They were Norwegians but I like to compare Rolvaag with Hamsun. Rolvaag
wrote 'Giants in the Earth' about the Norwegians in the Dakotas in the
1870s. He had emigrated and stayed in the US.
Hamsun spent a few years in America in the 1880s but went back. 'Hunger'
and some of his early works were a little strange but 'Growth of the Soil'
is set in rural Norway. There are many parallels to trying to make a life
in rural Dakota.
'Giants in the Earth' follows Per Hansa and his wife, Beret. Per really
wants to make a new life in America; Beret really wants to go home. She eventually goes more or less insane. I don't know how well she would have done in rural Norway either.
I'm in the camp believing that if everything worked, and you have an uploaded intelligence that for all intents and purposes acts like you, it wouldn't be you. I like conscious continuity, but many transhumanists do not require that or believe that.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:20:24 +0100, D wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:46:52 +0100, D wrote:
I always thought about starting a mega-church. Seems like a nice
business!
I wonder if the time has passed, or if there are any fairly recent
mega churches started by some elite psychologist?
There isn't enough population to really go mega but a church I pass on
the way to town has aspirations. It sends out colorful postcards and
has signboards on its property promoting activities.
https://crosspointmt.com/plan-a-visit
Very modern! My european views have warped my expectations. A church
that's less than 200 years old?? ;)
Speak of the devil, yesterday's mail was a glossy postcard inviting me to 'Come Home for Christmas at Crosspoint'. There is also the 'Drive-Thru
Live Nativity/Choir of Angels' on the 21th, 6:00-8:00 PM. That must be a pisser. I noticed they were building a rather large manger in the parking
lot but I didn't know they'd lined up angels.
I've only been there for events on New Years Eve but I figure a proper
church should look like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
St._Francis_Xavier_Church_(Missoula,_Montana)
I usually do the same if I need to go to Gothenburg. Since there's a
city airport in Stockholm, you could get there a bit faster with plane,
but the difference was quite small. Now they are closing the city
airport, which means I would lose 2 hours going to the international
one, so the train would make much more sense. Especially since I can
walk around and work all the way. The only danger is autumn and winter
when the trains are completely unpredictable, but spring and summer
works fairly ok.
Hutterite turkeys? Had no idea such a thing existed! I learned today
that the japanese eat KFC chicken for christmas, since turkey is very
hard to get in japan.
If you know someone, maybe Hutterite turkey export to japan might be
your ticket to wealth and fame! =D
Another thing that's not for me. I don't have the time nor do I care for
hair products and stylized hair cuts.
Sounds like Mobergs utvandrarna where the woman wants to go home, and
the man wants to stay. Kind of weird that my wife now wants to move, and
I want to stay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
St._Francis_Xavier_Church_(Missoula,_Montana)
Now we're talking!!
I am always fascinated by all these train related web sites. Few ways of travel seem to awaken and inspire the passion, as travel by train!
. The only danger is autumn and winter when the trains are completely unpredictable, but spring and summer works fairly ok.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVhY2-gNG9k
That one brought back memories. I had a Lionel train set but nothing as elaborate as that one. There were little pellets you dropped in the smokestack to create the smoke effect. They probably contained 17
different carcinogens but those were more innocent times.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 03:22:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I laugh at those 'ancestry' companies who will tell their clients
that they're "12% French" or whatever.
But the percentages are so precise! And the story changes! The last time I looked it said I-M253 was very rare among 23andMe customers. I found that
odd since it can run to 50% in parts of Scandinavia. Didn't they have any Scandinavian customers? Today is says
'I-M253 is relatively common among 23andMe customers.'
Dammit, I'm not special anymore!
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
However there is ONE group - the Basques - who seem to have come
quite early and were not over-run.
The local language does seem to have been resistant to replacement for a
few thousand years. However the population genetics is rather less
static, with almost complete Y-chromosome replacement by R1b-M269 after 2000BCE.
See e.g. Olalde et al, The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over
the past 8000 years.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:03:59 +0100, D wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the >>>>> result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and >>>> no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does >>>> anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
(to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
This is very promising! I imagine they have a very beautiful restaurant
where you can enjoy a glass of champagne, and perhaps a delicious 3
course meal as well? =D
Or maybe it is the swedish version, where you get to enjoy an old,
plastic wrapped sandwich? ;)
If you're very, very lucky. There is a group in Indiana that had restored
an old steam engine and takes it out for a spin every now and then for
fund raisers They also have period cars and volunteers do serve beverages
and meals. As a bonus the destination was Peru IN and the Circus Hall of
Fame.
A couple of times I took Amtrak from Ft. Wayne to Chicago. It was a
difference experience. Amtrak on the Boston to DC corridor gets a lot of
love; other areas not so much.
There was a train between Stockholm and Gothenburg that focused on the "luxury" niche.
https://www.blataget.com/en/history/
The web site is super crappy, and hardly any photos (why??) but you can
kind of see the interior which looks alright and the food as well. Sadly
I do not think they ru nany longer. =(
I love the fact that the phone nr on the web site goes to someones
regular cellphone and not to a company switch board.
On 2024-12-21, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVhY2-gNG9k
That one brought back memories. I had a Lionel train set but nothing as
elaborate as that one. There were little pellets you dropped in the
smokestack to create the smoke effect. They probably contained 17
different carcinogens but those were more innocent times.
Back then, everybody was smoking so much that a few smoke pellets
were neglegible.
On 2024-12-21, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVhY2-gNG9k
That one brought back memories. I had a Lionel train set but nothing
as elaborate as that one. There were little pellets you dropped in the
smokestack to create the smoke effect. They probably contained 17
different carcinogens but those were more innocent times.
Back then, everybody was smoking so much that a few smoke pellets were neglegible.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 01:31:30 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
It's the 'hand-wave' thing that sunk the first AI paradigm.
Marv Minsky (who posted on usenet for awhile) and friends saw how
easily 'decisions' could be done with a transistor or two and assumed
it would thus be easy to build an AI. AC Clarke used the Minsky
optimism when fashioning the idea of "HAL".
Minsky threw a wrench in the works with his 9169 'Perceptrons'. He had
tried to implement B. F. skinner's operant condition with a analog lashup that sort of worked if the vacuum tubes didn't burn out. Rosenblatt has
built a 'Perceptron' and Minsky pointed out original design couldn't
handle an XOR. That sent research down another rabbit hole.
By the '80s the original perceptron had evolved into a multilayer network train by back propagation. When I played around with it 'Parallel
Distributed Processing' by Rumelhart and McClelland was THE book.
https://direct.mit.edu/books/monograph/4424/Parallel-Distributed- Processing-Volume
The ideas were fascinating but the computing power wasn't there. Most of
what I learned then is still relevant to TensorFlow and the other neural network approaches except now there are the $30,000 Nvidia GPUs to do the heavy lifting.
The '80s neural networks weren't practical so the focus shifted to expert systems until they petered out. The boom and bust cycles led to the term
'AI Winter'
https://www.techtarget.com/searchenterpriseai/definition/AI-winter
I think something worthwhile will come from this cycle but ultimately it won't be the LLMs that are getting all the hype.
I did have a few posts with Minsky as his vision was falling apart.
He did admit that he'd totally underestimated the problem. A few
transistors did NOT replace 600 million years of evolutionary
experiments - 'intelligence'/'self' was really deep/complex with
endless fuzzy processing and pattern matching steps between 'I' and
'O'.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 01:31:30 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
It's the 'hand-wave' thing that sunk the first AI paradigm.
Marv Minsky (who posted on usenet for awhile) and friends saw how
easily 'decisions' could be done with a transistor or two and assumed >>> it would thus be easy to build an AI. AC Clarke used the Minsky
optimism when fashioning the idea of "HAL".
Minsky threw a wrench in the works with his 9169 'Perceptrons'. He had
tried to implement B. F. skinner's operant condition with a analog lashup
that sort of worked if the vacuum tubes didn't burn out. Rosenblatt has
built a 'Perceptron' and Minsky pointed out original design couldn't
handle an XOR. That sent research down another rabbit hole.
By the '80s the original perceptron had evolved into a multilayer network
train by back propagation. When I played around with it 'Parallel
Distributed Processing' by Rumelhart and McClelland was THE book.
https://direct.mit.edu/books/monograph/4424/Parallel-Distributed-
Processing-Volume
The ideas were fascinating but the computing power wasn't there. Most of
what I learned then is still relevant to TensorFlow and the other neural
network approaches except now there are the $30,000 Nvidia GPUs to do the
heavy lifting.
The '80s neural networks weren't practical so the focus shifted to expert
systems until they petered out. The boom and bust cycles led to the term
'AI Winter'
https://www.techtarget.com/searchenterpriseai/definition/AI-winter
I think something worthwhile will come from this cycle but ultimately it
won't be the LLMs that are getting all the hype.
I wonder if not facebook, open sourcing their llm threw quite a wrench
in the Open AI machinery this time.
Open AI:s ai is stagnating, and I think perhaps the development of the
open source models will be good enough so that open ai might not be able
to recoup all the massive amounts of money that has been invested in them.
Then another ai winter, and after that, our dear llms might be ready for prime time!
On 12/20/24 3:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 03:22:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I laugh at those 'ancestry' companies who will tell their clients
that they're "12% French" or whatever.
But the percentages are so precise! And the story changes! The last
time I looked it said I-M253 was very rare among 23andMe customers. I
found that odd since it can run to 50% in parts of Scandinavia. Didn't
they have any Scandinavian customers? Today is says
'I-M253 is relatively common among 23andMe customers.'
Dammit, I'm not special anymore!
But they got your MONEY - and, briefly, appealed to your vanity :-)
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:57:38 +0100, D wrote:
But now we have LLM:s! What I find interesting is how different people >>> view them. I find the free ones you can play with online to be
incredibly boring. I use them as a kind of search engine on steroids for >>> stuff that is not important (for entertainment purposes).
Brave added one to the search engine but I turned it off. Might as
well go
straight to reddit which seems to be heavily mined.
That's the thing. LLM:s for me, are good at summarizing articles, so
instead of being "ai" they are just a nice complement to searching, and
as long as they work and don't hallucinate, they save me some clicks.
That's about it.
Oh, and writing government policy documents. When doing that, their hallucinations are actually an asset! ;)
I do find the attempts to model neurophysiology fascinating. I was about
20 years too early or I probably would have wound up in cognitive science.
Trains are kinda 'yesterday tech' ... and now the profit
margins are negligible. Don't expect 'luxury' unless YOU
are willing to pay for it and the transport co gets enough
high-paying passengers to justify. If ENOUGH then then Hell
Yes they will hire gourmet chefs and such and put in
comfy seats.
Otherwise it's the 10-day-old plastic-wrapped sandwich.
It's a pity zeppelins proved so impractical - THOSE had
a 'romance' and you COULD go for 'luxury'. Cruise ships
are a step up, but maybe only one step.
Anyway, for now, expect all transportation to be Just
Another Uber. We will have to wait for Musk to build
a luxury Earth/Mars travel line.
On 20/12/2024 21:28, D wrote:
I usually do the same if I need to go to Gothenburg. Since there's a city
airport in Stockholm, you could get there a bit faster with plane, but the >> difference was quite small. Now they are closing the city airport, which
means I would lose 2 hours going to the international one, so the train
would make much more sense. Especially since I can walk around and work all >> the way. The only danger is autumn and winter when the trains are
completely unpredictable, but spring and summer works fairly ok.
Is Gothenburg srill a reasonable place to be. My sister lived there, but left. I heard it was now another 'stan...
..Like Malmö
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:24:19 +0100, D wrote:
Hutterite turkeys? Had no idea such a thing existed! I learned today
that the japanese eat KFC chicken for christmas, since turkey is very
hard to get in japan.
If you know someone, maybe Hutterite turkey export to japan might be
your ticket to wealth and fame! =D
https://nbcmontana.com/news/local/hutterite-turkeys-popular-for- thanksgiving-dinner_20160510235145833
There must have been a surplus. I was at Pattee Creek yesterday picking up the makings for sauerbraten and there was a freezer full at 99 cents a
pound. People do eat turkey at other times than Thanksgiving but that's
what the whole turkey industry is geared for.
On 2024-12-20, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I'm in the camp believing that if everything worked, and you have an uploaded
intelligence that for all intents and purposes acts like you, it wouldn't be >> you. I like conscious continuity, but many transhumanists do not require that
or believe that.
On a related note, is it really reincarnation if you can't remember past lives?
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:36:45 +0100, D wrote:
Another thing that's not for me. I don't have the time nor do I care for
hair products and stylized hair cuts.
Someone on X yesterday asked for beard oil recommendations. I couldn't
resist recommending Rotella T4 15W-40. My beard gets oiled when something goes very wrong with a maintenance project.
That's the basis for my style. Brush it back and tie it. Done. No awkward questions from barbers about what I want.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:28:40 +0100, D wrote:
. The only danger is autumn and winter when the trains are completely
unpredictable, but spring and summer works fairly ok.
I took the train from Albany to NYC a couple of times in the late '60s
when the New York Central was headed for bankruptcy. Heat was optional in the winter.
It was sad. Grand Central Terminal was theirs and the Empire State Express was famous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxK9-jachh8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVhY2-gNG9k
That one brought back memories. I had a Lionel train set but nothing as elaborate as that one. There were little pellets you dropped in the smokestack to create the smoke effect. They probably contained 17
different carcinogens but those were more innocent times.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:34:51 +0100, D wrote:
Sounds like Mobergs utvandrarna where the woman wants to go home, and
the man wants to stay. Kind of weird that my wife now wants to move, and
I want to stay.
It's a good read. Part of Beret's problem was the Dakotas are mostly
steppes. Per had his farming but all she had was looking out at endless
grass or during the winter endless white snow. He realizes she is
depressed and has the brainstorm to whitewash the inside of the cabin to brighten it up. That put her over the edge.
Rolvaag himself grew up on Dønna island in a family that fished in
Lofoten. Looking at photos of that area I wonder if that made his descriptions of the horror of endless prairies a personal thing. The land
was available and cheap but it must have taken a while to adapt. I don't
do well in the flatlands and don't think I could handle it.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:38:11 +0100, D wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
St._Francis_Xavier_Church_(Missoula,_Montana)
Now we're talking!!
Leaving theology entirely aside Catholics always had a much better
aesthetic sense than Protestants. The protestants even parsed the
decalogue to wind up with "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image" rather than "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain"
that the Catholics and Lutherans use. Bunch of damn dour Taliban types.
Statues! Candles! Incense! Paintings! A church isn't supposed to look like
a barn!
Of course, the Catholics seem determined to give that all away. Francis X
has streaming video of the Mass. I watched once and hardly recognized it.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:31:38 +0100, D wrote:
I am always fascinated by all these train related web sites. Few ways of
travel seem to awaken and inspire the passion, as travel by train!
There is a mystique even for people where train travel isn't feasible. So much has been lost.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Station_(Albany,_New_York)
That was replaced by
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albany%E2%80%93Rensselaer_station
More than the architecture, Union Station was in the heart of Albany. Rensselaer is a small town on the other side of the river so it's like landing at JFK. "Okay, I'm here. What do I do now?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Station_(Troy,_New_York)
When I was very young my mother and I took the train from there to go over
to the Boston Flower show. They just tore that one down. If you wanted to take the train you had to drive to Albany or, after they shut that one
down, Rensselaer.
So in my lifetime rail travel has went from a common occurrence to an inconvenient, expensive way to travel outside of specific corridors.
On 12/20/24 4:40 AM, D wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:03:59 +0100, D wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the >>>>>> result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security >>>>> theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and >>>>> no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does >>>>> anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter >>>>> (to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
This is very promising! I imagine they have a very beautiful restaurant >>>> where you can enjoy a glass of champagne, and perhaps a delicious 3
course meal as well? =D
Or maybe it is the swedish version, where you get to enjoy an old,
plastic wrapped sandwich? ;)
If you're very, very lucky. There is a group in Indiana that had restored >>> an old steam engine and takes it out for a spin every now and then for
fund raisers They also have period cars and volunteers do serve beverages >>> and meals. As a bonus the destination was Peru IN and the Circus Hall of >>> Fame.
A couple of times I took Amtrak from Ft. Wayne to Chicago. It was a
difference experience. Amtrak on the Boston to DC corridor gets a lot of >>> love; other areas not so much.
There was a train between Stockholm and Gothenburg that focused on the
"luxury" niche.
https://www.blataget.com/en/history/
The web site is super crappy, and hardly any photos (why??) but you can
kind of see the interior which looks alright and the food as well. Sadly I >> do not think they ru nany longer. =(
I love the fact that the phone nr on the web site goes to someones regular >> cellphone and not to a company switch board.
Trains are kinda 'yesterday tech' ... and now the profit
margins are negligible. Don't expect 'luxury' unless YOU
are willing to pay for it and the transport co gets enough
high-paying passengers to justify. If ENOUGH then then Hell
Yes they will hire gourmet chefs and such and put in
comfy seats.
Otherwise it's the 10-day-old plastic-wrapped sandwich.
It's a pity zeppelins proved so impractical - THOSE had
a 'romance' and you COULD go for 'luxury'. Cruise ships
are a step up, but maybe only one step.
Anyway, for now, expect all transportation to be Just
Another Uber. We will have to wait for Musk to build
a luxury Earth/Mars travel line.
On 12/20/24 10:59 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-21, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVhY2-gNG9k
That one brought back memories. I had a Lionel train set but nothing as >>> elaborate as that one. There were little pellets you dropped in the
smokestack to create the smoke effect. They probably contained 17
different carcinogens but those were more innocent times.
Back then, everybody was smoking so much that a few smoke pellets
were neglegible.
Note a lot of those gens are still alive while all
the latter ones seem to be dropping dead of cancers
in their 20s/30s.
On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 02:27:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
I did have a few posts with Minsky as his vision was falling apart.
He did admit that he'd totally underestimated the problem. A few
transistors did NOT replace 600 million years of evolutionary
experiments - 'intelligence'/'self' was really deep/complex with
endless fuzzy processing and pattern matching steps between 'I' and
'O'.
https://historyof.ai/snarc/
Some tubes, milsurp gyropilots, a couple of chain driven pots, and I'm
good to go... He would have been in his early 20s when you figure you've got the world by the balls.
I do find the attempts to model neurophysiology fascinating. I was about
20 years too early or I probably would have wound up in cognitive science.
On 12/20/24 12:19 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 01:31:30 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
It's the 'hand-wave' thing that sunk the first AI paradigm.
Marv Minsky (who posted on usenet for awhile) and friends saw how
easily 'decisions' could be done with a transistor or two and assumed >>> it would thus be easy to build an AI. AC Clarke used the Minsky
optimism when fashioning the idea of "HAL".
Minsky threw a wrench in the works with his 9169 'Perceptrons'. He had
tried to implement B. F. skinner's operant condition with a analog lashup
that sort of worked if the vacuum tubes didn't burn out. Rosenblatt has
built a 'Perceptron' and Minsky pointed out original design couldn't
handle an XOR. That sent research down another rabbit hole.
By the '80s the original perceptron had evolved into a multilayer network
train by back propagation. When I played around with it 'Parallel
Distributed Processing' by Rumelhart and McClelland was THE book.
https://direct.mit.edu/books/monograph/4424/Parallel-Distributed-
Processing-Volume
The ideas were fascinating but the computing power wasn't there. Most of
what I learned then is still relevant to TensorFlow and the other neural
network approaches except now there are the $30,000 Nvidia GPUs to do the
heavy lifting.
The '80s neural networks weren't practical so the focus shifted to expert
systems until they petered out. The boom and bust cycles led to the term
'AI Winter'
https://www.techtarget.com/searchenterpriseai/definition/AI-winter
I think something worthwhile will come from this cycle but ultimately it
won't be the LLMs that are getting all the hype.
With Minsky and friends it was just naive enthusiasm ...
it was SO EASY to do logic and thus it seemed SO EASY
to wire bits of it together and get an 'intelligence'.
The same gen also promised us those flying cars and
luxury Mars living by 1999 .......
IMHO, if we're gonna get anything largely indistinguishable
from 'sentience' these days it'll be the next few gens of
LLMs. You can argue it'd be "fake" - but if you fake something
WELL ENOUGH it's not fake anymore. LLMs and near derivs are
where the HUGE money is these days.
I did have a few posts with Minsky as his vision was
falling apart. He did admit that he'd totally underestimated
the problem. A few transistors did NOT replace 600 million
years of evolutionary experiments - 'intelligence'/'self'
was really deep/complex with endless fuzzy processing and
pattern matching steps between 'I' and 'O'.
However I still keep a copy of his "Society Of Mind"
as a reminder of yesterday's optimism. He THOUGHT
about it, TRIED ... and thus eventual failure was
not really a failure - it just inspired new directions.
There had to be a foundation to build on.
There was a short-lived UK series about androids
that eventually came to self-awareness (and the
hate/fear directed towards them). The idea there
was that 'self' was a sort of fractal, self-reflective,
kind of paradigm. I suspect they had something there.
Chat/LLMs maybe can't achieve that on their own, but
who says you can't splice on a few more methods ?
Organic brains seem to have LOTS of layers, lots
of 'little people' inside that merge into 'Me'.
On 12/20/24 4:22 PM, D wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:57:38 +0100, D wrote:
But now we have LLM:s! What I find interesting is how different people >>>> view them. I find the free ones you can play with online to be
incredibly boring. I use them as a kind of search engine on steroids for >>>> stuff that is not important (for entertainment purposes).
Brave added one to the search engine but I turned it off. Might as well go >>> straight to reddit which seems to be heavily mined.
That's the thing. LLM:s for me, are good at summarizing articles, so
instead of being "ai" they are just a nice complement to searching, and as >> long as they work and don't hallucinate, they save me some clicks. That's
about it.
Oh, and writing government policy documents. When doing that, their
hallucinations are actually an asset! ;)
Ha Ha Ha - SO true there :-)
Anyway, as I say elsewhere, LLMs are just PART of
'intelligence'. OTHER parts need to be spliced in.
Brains are just WEIRD ... 600+ million years of
field-tested neural insanity.
However, somewhere in there - early - "ME-ism"
emerged. There's some neat-o trick to that which
we haven't yet grasped. We're not thinking quite
right about 'self'. I think THAT is the basic
paradigm and then you add more IQ and such ONTO it.
On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2024-12-20, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
I'm in the camp believing that if everything worked, and you have an
uploaded
intelligence that for all intents and purposes acts like you, it
wouldn't be
you. I like conscious continuity, but many transhumanists do not
require that
or believe that.
On a related note, is it really reincarnation if you can't remember
past lives?
Let's ask god and see what his opinion is! ;) From a teaching point of
view I always found it weird that you're supposed to "learn" something
or achieve some purpose.
It's like god says, hey, learn this, but I'll mindwipe you every time so
you cannot accumulate any knowledge and learn from your mistakes, except
by chance. Have fun!
I have on my to do list to start a zeppelin airline between europe and
new york. I just need to utilize synchronicity to bump into Richard
Branson or other billionaire of choice first, and then we're off! =D
This is very strange. How come bodies react so differently to
cigarettes? I've known old people in their 80s and 90s who smoked all
their lives, and I've heard about people in their 50s and 60s dieing of
lung cancer. Very strange how differently cigarettes affect peoples health.
An acquaintance had a grandmother who smoked until she was 70 or so, and
one day she said... "I've had it, I quit smoking now" and just like
that, over a day, she quit smoking.
On 12/20/24 4:18 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
However there is ONE group - the Basques - who seem to have comeThe local language does seem to have been resistant to replacement
quite early and were not over-run.
for a
few thousand years. However the population genetics is rather less
static, with almost complete Y-chromosome replacement by R1b-M269 after
2000BCE.
I'd heard that - but don't ask me for a ref.
See e.g. Olalde et al, The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over
the past 8000 years.
As I kinda menntioned in all this ... there's really just no such
thing as 'genetic purity' in Europe.
Over thousands of years various people/groups kept moving around and
moving around and screwing anything interesting they encountered.
So, is 'nation' more a CULTURAL THING instead ?
'Culture' seems more resilient - genes rather
secondary.
As for the Basques ... ONLY a 'Y' replacement seems
very odd .....
We were still speculating about 'Cheddar Man'. For awhile they figured African/N.African mostly based on the length/size/profile of
bones. What LITTLE DNA they could get suggests a migrant from western
Europe, but it was a small sample. There's also question about WHAT
"western euro" actually MEANT, genetically, at the exact timeframe.
The "only" thing lacking is the integrating "ego"-layer that coordinates
all these separate systems we've developed, and provides the AI with volition/initiative/independence.
Interesting! Reminds me of an arabian I met once who had a nice business going on exporting chicken feet from brazil, selling them in hong kong.
Maybe Hutterite turkey nippon LLC could be a thing!
It's like god says, hey, learn this, but I'll mindwipe you every time so
you cannot accumulate any knowledge and learn from your mistakes, except
by chance. Have fun!
Ah but your DNA (Deity Nominated Archive) knows!
An acquaintance had a grandmother who smoked until she was 70 or so, and
one day she said... "I've had it, I quit smoking now" and just like
that,
over a day, she quit smoking.
They may be tomorrows tech too, if fossil fuel prices rise high enough.
Its all in the and cost-benefit analysis on riad building and cost of
fuel versus cost of rail plus overhead lines and cheap nuclear power.
We have big brains not to compose music or do science, but to walk
upright...
Kinda amazed they work at all. There's also a weird,
almost 'holographic', nature to them - some of those kids blasted by
hydrocephalus, with little grey matter left, still managed average or
even a bit above average IQs. It's the same with 'cerebral palsy'
cases. They STILL produce a 'person' in there. The System WANTS to
work.
I also thought about it at university but came to the conclusion that my
math skills were not strong enough. But, I would have been too early for
the current AI boom anyway.
Nonense... what doesn't kill us makes us stronger!
As long as there's forest or water I'm happy. Very neutral on mountains.
The wife however, loves moutains, and that severely limits the places
where we can move, but I think she'll be ok with a pine forest. She
hates leafy trees though. Hmm, very picky woman, now that I think of it!
On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 12:06:00 +0100, D wrote:
Nonense... what doesn't kill us makes us stronger!
I do really believe that.
This is a strong, scientific argument in favour of a pony tail! I do not think I have the genetics to grow my hair that long though. My beard
stops growing after about 0.5-1 cm or so to my great sorrow. =(
Yeah... he's not my favourite pope. I wonder if there will be a huge
backlash and a super conservative pope when it's time for him to go? I
heard rumours that one contender for the papacy is the only swedish
cardinal Anders (?) Arborelius.
I'm following the career of Musk with great interest! I wonder if he
will be the first trillionaire? I also wonder if he will eventually burn
out or if something will happen to him since he's achieved so much in
such a short time.
Jesus! What a crime! The airport in Lithuania has a part that is old
20th century style, and now they are expanding the airport with... you guessed it, an anonymous glass and concrete structure, just like every
other airport on the planet. =( I like the old part and was hoping that they'd continue on that theme, but no... the architects need to get
their pound of flesh! =(
On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 12:17:41 +0100, D wrote:
I'm following the career of Musk with great interest! I wonder if he
will be the first trillionaire? I also wonder if he will eventually burn
out or if something will happen to him since he's achieved so much in
such a short time.
I'm not nominating Musk but I do believe the out of fashion Great Man
theory. With the mediocrity of the political class you get nothing but mediocrity, or equity as they style in.
Absolutely yes. People group themselves in all sorts of ways: shared language, shared religion, shared territory, shared enemy, shared
preferred computing platform. Pretty much anything you can think of.
On 21/12/2024 11:19, D wrote:
This is very strange. How come bodies react so differently to cigarettes?
I've known old people in their 80s and 90s who smoked all their lives, and >> I've heard about people in their 50s and 60s dieing of lung cancer. Very
strange how differently cigarettes affect peoples health.
An acquaintance had a grandmother who smoked until she was 70 or so, and
one day she said... "I've had it, I quit smoking now" and just like that,
over a day, she quit smoking.
I quit twice. Finally 10 years ago
But I still have pretty bad lung damage these days.
On 21/12/2024 11:17, D wrote:
I have on my to do list to start a zeppelin airline between europe and new >> york. I just need to utilize synchronicity to bump into Richard Branson or >> other billionaire of choice first, and then we're off! =D
Frankly a nuclear powered ship would be quicker, safer and FAR more luxurious.
On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 12:22:02 +0100, D wrote:
The "only" thing lacking is the integrating "ego"-layer that coordinates
all these separate systems we've developed, and provides the AI with
volition/initiative/independence.
This veers into philosophy again. Do humans really have an ego that wills
or are we only along for the ride as the wetware works its magic and the linguistic neurons weave a tale to whisper in our ears?
On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 12:02:55 +0100, D wrote:
Interesting! Reminds me of an arabian I met once who had a nice business
going on exporting chicken feet from brazil, selling them in hong kong.
Maybe Hutterite turkey nippon LLC could be a thing!
We stole their Waygu cattle so we should give them turkeys. I've gotten
the so-called wagyu beef; tastes a lot like Angus to me. I hope the real Japanese stuff is better.
