| Sysop: | Amessyroom |
|---|---|
| Location: | Fayetteville, NC |
| Users: | 42 |
| Nodes: | 6 (0 / 6) |
| Uptime: | 01:45:23 |
| Calls: | 220 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 824 |
| Messages: | 121,543 |
| Posted today: | 6 |
not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:
Fighting buggy scripts, that's hard.
Those scripts are in use on millions of installations millions of
times daily. They can hardly be unusably buggy.
Old Grub just did
what you asked it to, like Syslinux/Extlinux mercifully still do.
In my world, using exotic solutions without pressing reason is
considered a technical liability.
Imvho opinion windows is preferably run inside a virtual machine. Win11
runs very well virtualized, and does not break anything outside.
Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:
Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> writes:
Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:That doesn't change very often. Most times it will still be the same as >yesterday.
How about the part of EFI boot configuration that is store in NVRAM?
I haven't found that being a problem the few times I've needed to do the >restoration.
You obviously never had to restore because of failed hardware.
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 21:38:23 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
For ConfigFilePhobes ... I'd still rec VBox.
That’s why Xen Orchestra offers such a nice GUI.
(There’s a command line behind it, so you can get to that if you want.)
Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:
Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> writes:
Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:That doesn't change very often. Most times it will still be the same as
How about the part of EFI boot configuration that is store in NVRAM?
yesterday.
I haven't found that being a problem the few times I've needed to do the
restoration.
You obviously never had to restore because of failed hardware.
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 8/19/24 2:35 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
Def : "NvRAM" - Non-Volatile-Random-Access-Memory ...
the 'e-disk' you now find in every laptop and oft
even desktops these days. Most commonly "M2" but
the tech can be put in other things/formats. First
saw one in the Asus EEEPC as the main 'drive'.
That terminology is totally exotic. You're probably mixing up NVMe and
NVRAM.
Um ... nothing remotely "exotic" about it.
What cave have you been living in since 1969 ???
It's all the SAME THING ... just different acronyms.
Get your facts straight, boy. It's not a shame to not know something.
It's a shame to not educate yourself after being corrected.
Even these modern mini-boxes (search Amazon, there are a
huge selection of variants)
If you want to have more than two ethernet ports, for example in network/firewall applications, the air gets thin pretty quickly.
Aliexpress has more of those, but many of those come without docs, so
it's basically luck to get it to work, and if you want to have some continuity in buying Aliexpress is a bad idea.
On 8/18/24 9:51 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 21:38:23 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
For ConfigFilePhobes ... I'd still rec VBox.
That’s why Xen Orchestra offers such a nice GUI.
(There’s a command line behind it, so you can get to that if you want.)
Alas "Orchestra" is hardly freeware ...
On 19/08/2024 17:18, MarioCCCP wrote:
Imvho opinion windows is preferably run inside a virtual+1
machine. Win11 runs very well virtualized, and does not
break anything outside. Files can be shared among guest
and host. VMWare manages this really smoothly (with
aggressive caching and delayed committing to the
network-disk).
Virtual box was when I switched to it from VMware a better
UI and screen driver,
If you are a 'lnuix ' person who needs windows occasionally,
VB or VMware is the way to go,
If you need raw winders fer gaming, buy a separate machine
for the job!
I think that after XP, Microsoft wised up and prohibited running
consumer versions of Windows inside a VM.
On 8/19/24 4:06 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
Aliexpress has more of those, but many of those come without docs, so
it's basically luck to get it to work, and if you want to have some
continuity in buying Aliexpress is a bad idea.
I never buy from Ali. Decided awhile back to just
get ONE nice USA Amazon acct. If they don't have
it I don't buy it. Don't wanna make my card
numbers even more accessible to the PRC.
In article <va0teh$37bdd$1@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro) wrote:
I think that after XP, Microsoft wised up and prohibited running
consumer versions of Windows inside a VM.
You may be mistaken. My employer has run loads of instances of Windows
7, 10 and 11 in VMs, and some 8.1. They were Enterprise, rather than
Home, but I'd be surprised if that made a difference.
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 00:08:14 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/18/24 9:51 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 21:38:23 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:Alas "Orchestra" is hardly freeware ...
For ConfigFilePhobes ... I'd still rec VBox.
That’s why Xen Orchestra offers such a nice GUI.
(There’s a command line behind it, so you can get to that if you want.) >>
No, it’s Free software.
186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 8/19/24 4:06 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
Aliexpress has more of those, but many of those come without docs, so
it's basically luck to get it to work, and if you want to have some
continuity in buying Aliexpress is a bad idea.
I never buy from Ali. Decided awhile back to just
get ONE nice USA Amazon acct. If they don't have
it I don't buy it. Don't wanna make my card
numbers even more accessible to the PRC.
They do accept PayPal now.
Plus since I use pre-paid cards for
online transactions with only enough money loaded for each
purchase, any fraud attempts would likely fail quietly due to
"insufficient funds", or at least be easily spotted.
Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:
Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> writes:
This is probably the chicken-and-egg aspect of it. Probably the best isAll computer users should have an emergency kit. The main component
having an isolated (removable or otherwise unplugged) bootable medium
ready in case it's needed.
of which being a bootable utilities system. In today's world, such a
bootable emergency kit is a Live/Install USB. And most of those have
a 'writable' partition that can be filled with extra utilities on top.
The recommended thing is a specialized rescue/forensic system, such as
grml. Why carry the ballast of a live system with GUI, Audio, Video, Development Environment etc if it can also be more lightweight?
I guess the main risk with multiple boot scenarios involving Windows is
Windows wiping it out on purpose. (Or perhaps out of incompetence? I
mean, it's said not to attribute to malice...)
Once you receive Windows on your new machine, you have a choice: erase
it competely or minimise it down to almost nothing.
"almost nothing" nowadays means a middle two-digit number of
gigabytes. A windows that is short on space won't update at all, a
windows that is not so short on space will try to update and then fail
with a nondescript eight-digit error number. Only a windows that as
ample space will update cleanly.
* Windows 7 was "Peak Windows".
Windows 10 and 11 are better than their reputation if you leave the
data protection stuff aside.
Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:
Fighting buggy scripts, that's hard.
Those scripts are in use on millions of installations millions of
times daily. They can hardly be unusably buggy.
Most aren't multi-boot installations. Anyway, if you accept that
writing menu.lst entries wasn't hard, why adopt a bootloader that
requires those scripts in the first place? They're just another
point of failure, and no I'm not going to be convinced against
personal experience that it's an impossible point of failure.
Old Grub just did
what you asked it to, like Syslinux/Extlinux mercifully still do.
In my world, using exotic solutions without pressing reason is
considered a technical liability.
Yes well I install Linux on personal PCs instead of Windows or
MacOS, so that battle is already completely lost in the eyes of
many.
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 17:51 +0100 (BST), John Dallman wrote:
In article <va0teh$37bdd$1@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence
D'Oliveiro) wrote:
I think that after XP, Microsoft wised up and prohibited running
consumer versions of Windows inside a VM.
You may be mistaken. My employer has run loads of instances of Windows
7, 10 and 11 in VMs, and some 8.1. They were Enterprise, rather than
Home, but I'd be surprised if that made a difference.
Yes, it makes a difference.
Can Debian grub look after other systems?
doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
Can Debian grub look after other systems?
Sure.
Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
Can Debian grub look after other systems?
Sure.
Isn't that disabled by default now in Bookworm/stable?
Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
Can Debian grub look after other systems?
Sure.
Isn't that disabled by default now in Bookworm/stable?
On 8/19/24 2:25 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:
* Windows 7 was "Peak Windows".
Windows 10 and 11 are better than their reputation if you leave the
data protection stuff aside.
Nah ... Win2k was "peak Windows" ... got bloated
and over-complex from there :-)
On 2024-08-21, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
On 8/19/24 2:25 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:
* Windows 7 was "Peak Windows".
Windows 10 and 11 are better than their reputation if you leave the
data protection stuff aside.
Nah ... Win2k was "peak Windows" ... got bloated
and over-complex from there :-)
IMHO the peak was somewhere between 2k and XP. Win2k had
driver issues (for me, an instant blue screen when plugging
in a USB-to-MIDI adaptor), while XP handled it smoothly.
I still run XP under VirtualBox for my modest Windows needs.
For some reason Win7 and I have bad chemistry, and it's only
gotten worse since. As the old saying goes, XP is a great
improvement on its successors.
Geez, remember when DOS came on ONE floppy ?
You could DO STUFF with it, rather COMPLEX
stuff actually. Not a 'toy' system. Even the
smallest usable Linux requires a LOT more space.
On 14.08.2024 um 16:43 Uhr Ant wrote:
Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
Can Debian grub look after other systems?
Sure.
Isn't that disabled by default now in Bookworm/stable?
It is, but if needed, enable it.
On EFI systems, you can boot the other OS directly via the UEFI
internal boot manager. Benefit of that: No more raise conditions for
updating the boot manager stuff in the other OS.
That being said, if you're not an expert, avoid dual boot please.
Especially if Windows is one of the OSses.
Win2k was kind of the last incarnation of Win-NT
and was oriented towards biz/pro uses.
It had most of the logic and structure we find
in modern Win. It did NOT have all the BLOAT
and incomprehensible complexity of XP and beyond.
By then "eye-candy" and all-integration had
become the main things.
On 8/20/24 9:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 17:51 +0100 (BST), John Dallman wrote:
In article <va0teh$37bdd$1@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence
D'Oliveiro) wrote:
I think that after XP, Microsoft wised up and prohibited running
consumer versions of Windows inside a VM.
You may be mistaken. My employer has run loads of instances of Windows
7, 10 and 11 in VMs, and some 8.1. They were Enterprise, rather than
Home, but I'd be surprised if that made a difference.
Yes, it makes a difference.
"Home" versions are badly crippled right where
you don't want them to be crippled. M$ is about
$$$ after all .....
I remember when M$ was celebrated, the developers
friend. THAT didn't last long ....
ANYWAY ... usable VMs of most any system - CP/M
on up - can be made and run at this point.
XP's user interface looks as if it had been designed by Fisher-Price.
On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 19:18:19 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
XP's user interface looks as if it had been designed by Fisher-Price.
Windows, Apple OS X, even BeOS ... all got the idea that you must tie the
GUI inextricably into the OS kernel, possibly for “efficiency” reasons or to enforce common GUI standards or something.
Meanwhile the *nix folks blithely cruised on with their 1980s-based keep- the-GUI-as-a-separate-modular-layer idea.
And guess what: that turned out to be a much more versatile and future-
proof architecture.
On 8/22/24 10:23 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Windows, Apple OS X, even BeOS ... all got the idea that you must tie
the GUI inextricably into the OS kernel, possibly for “efficiency”
reasons or to enforce common GUI standards or something.
Meanwhile the *nix folks blithely cruised on with their 1980s-based
keep- the-GUI-as-a-separate-modular-layer idea.
And guess what: that turned out to be a much more versatile and future-
proof architecture.
Yes ... but not so great for "gaming" ...
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 01:41:21 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/22/24 10:23 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Windows, Apple OS X, even BeOS ... all got the idea that you must tie
the GUI inextricably into the OS kernel, possibly for “efficiency”
reasons or to enforce common GUI standards or something.
Meanwhile the *nix folks blithely cruised on with their 1980s-based
keep- the-GUI-as-a-separate-modular-layer idea.
And guess what: that turned out to be a much more versatile and
future-
proof architecture.
Yes ... but not so great for "gaming" ...
Actually, it’s working great for gaming, as the Steam Deck proves.
On 8/23/24 2:01 AM, vallor wrote:
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:54:46 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <va9876$qcj0$1@dont-email.me>:
Actually, [Linux is] working great for gaming, as the Steam Deck
proves.
Great strides have been made with proton -- I can play Starfield, Elite
Dangerous Odyssey, Borderlands 3, and Tiny Tina's Wonderland.
People who say you can't game on Linux haven't been keeping up with the
times...
Ummmm ... I'd say "benchmark" ....
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:54:46 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <va9876$qcj0$1@dont-email.me>:
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 01:41:21 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/22/24 10:23 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Windows, Apple OS X, even BeOS ... all got the idea that you must tie
the GUI inextricably into the OS kernel, possibly for “efficiency” >>>> reasons or to enforce common GUI standards or something.
Meanwhile the *nix folks blithely cruised on with their 1980s-based
keep- the-GUI-as-a-separate-modular-layer idea.
And guess what: that turned out to be a much more versatile and
future-
proof architecture.
Yes ... but not so great for "gaming" ...
Actually, it’s working great for gaming, as the Steam Deck proves.
Great strides have been made with proton -- I can play Starfield, Elite Dangerous Odyssey, Borderlands 3, and Tiny Tina's Wonderland.
People who say you can't game on Linux haven't been keeping up
with the times...
On 22/08/2024 06:06, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
Geez, remember when DOS came on ONE floppy ?
You could DO STUFF with it, rather COMPLEX
stuff actually. Not a 'toy' system. Even the
smallest usable Linux requires a LOT more space.
The correct counter to that is to point out that in no wise was DOS an 'operating system' - it was only a program loader.
In fact you could entirely bypass it to write directly to the hardware
and many industrial applications did exactly that, yea even unto running their own multitaskers and so on.
concurrent CP/M was about the smallest multiuser multitasker OS that was ever crammed onto an 8086 platform IIRC. Or there might have been a real time one or two as well.
Linux by its nature sets out to be an unrestricted UNIX like system,. complete with all the complexity and bells and whistles needed to have multiple users, multiple processes , interprocess communications,
daemons to handle single thread hardware like a disk, multi-layered security, and the ability to intersperse drivers in a rigorous manner to access arbitrary hardware.
operating system and you simply cannot compare it with DOS.
SCO Unix needed a 386 to run - only Venix IIRC ran off a 286 - badly.
It was extremely successful because it actually worked. At an affordable price
I've seen 256 users via serial cards running on a 386 running SCO.
Extreme, but possible, but 64k users was a more normal limit with 32
being normal.
We ran about 150 over telnet at one point once the TCP/IP worked....:-)Yet sales were not enough to keep it alive. This
This was PDP/VAX territory ...at a price people could afford.
On 8/23/24 2:01 AM, vallor wrote:
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:54:46 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <va9876$qcj0$1@dont-email.me>:
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 01:41:21 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/22/24 10:23 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Windows, Apple OS X, even BeOS ... all got the idea that you must
tie the GUI inextricably into the OS kernel, possibly for
“efficiency”
reasons or to enforce common GUI standards or something.
Meanwhile the *nix folks blithely cruised on with their 1980s-based
keep- the-GUI-as-a-separate-modular-layer idea.
And guess what: that turned out to be a much more versatile and
future-
proof architecture.
Yes ... but not so great for "gaming" ...
Actually, it’s working great for gaming, as the Steam Deck proves.
Great strides have been made with proton -- I can play Starfield, Elite
Dangerous Odyssey, Borderlands 3, and Tiny Tina's Wonderland.
People who say you can't game on Linux haven't been keeping up with the
times...
Ummmm ... I'd say "benchmark" ....
Some of the capabilities you tout have more to do with the sheer
speed of latter-day CPUs than the merits of the underlying OS.
Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
On 14.08.2024 um 16:43 Uhr Ant wrote:
Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
Can Debian grub look after other systems?
Sure.
Isn't that disabled by default now in Bookworm/stable?
It is, but if needed, enable it.
On EFI systems, you can boot the other OS directly via the UEFI
internal boot manager. Benefit of that: No more raise conditions for >>updating the boot manager stuff in the other OS.
That being said, if you're not an expert, avoid dual boot please.
Especially if Windows is one of the OSses.
Greetings
Marc
-- >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header >Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 10:12:09 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
That being said, if you're not an expert, avoid dual boot please.
Especially if Windows is one of the OSses.
I have heard others recommend against dual boot, too. Mistakes will likely lead to neither OS being able to boot; this is typically easy to fix if
you know your way around a tool like SystemRescue, but if not, it can be fatal.
So far, I am liking it.
I can use Debian to Boot Between Debian and FreeBSD.
Can Debian grub look after other systems?
On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 10:12:09 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
That being said, if you're not an expert, avoid dual boot please.
Especially if Windows is one of the OSses.
I have heard others recommend against dual boot, too. Mistakes will likely >lead to neither OS being able to boot; this is typically easy to fix if
you know your way around a tool like SystemRescue, but if not, it can be >fatal.
Dual booted befreo with OS/2 and Windows in the 1990s.
On 8/14/24 9:31 AM, The Doctor wrote:
So far, I am liking it.
I can use Debian to Boot Between Debian and FreeBSD.
Can Debian grub look after other systems?
GRUB can work multi-boots ... most any Linux will
install GRUB and you can add on from there. GRUB
is not Linux, not Debian, its own app.
Debian ... maybe you want virtual machines instead ?
If so there's VirtualBox though some like KVM better
(VBox IS a bit more flexible though IMHO, fewer
config files to fool with).
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 02:37:25 -0400, "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote in <OQ6dnRNhof67s1X7nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
On 8/23/24 2:01 AM, vallor wrote:
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:54:46 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <va9876$qcj0$1@dont-email.me>:
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 01:41:21 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/22/24 10:23 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Windows, Apple OS X, even BeOS ... all got the idea that you must
tie the GUI inextricably into the OS kernel, possibly for
“efficiency”
reasons or to enforce common GUI standards or something.
Meanwhile the *nix folks blithely cruised on with their 1980s-based >>>>>> keep- the-GUI-as-a-separate-modular-layer idea.
And guess what: that turned out to be a much more versatile and
future-
proof architecture.
Yes ... but not so great for "gaming" ...
Actually, it’s working great for gaming, as the Steam Deck proves.
Great strides have been made with proton -- I can play Starfield, Elite
Dangerous Odyssey, Borderlands 3, and Tiny Tina's Wonderland.
People who say you can't game on Linux haven't been keeping up with the
times...
Ummmm ... I'd say "benchmark" ....
Some of the capabilities you tout have more to do with the sheer
speed of latter-day CPUs than the merits of the underlying OS.
Some games are even faster on Linux than Windows, thanks
to...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DXVK
The games run fine on Linux. Welcome to the 2020's. :)
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 02:37:25 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
On 8/23/24 2:01 AM, vallor wrote:
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:54:46 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <va9876$qcj0$1@dont-email.me>:
Actually, [Linux is] working great for gaming, as the Steam Deck
proves.
Great strides have been made with proton -- I can play Starfield, Elite
Dangerous Odyssey, Borderlands 3, and Tiny Tina's Wonderland.
People who say you can't game on Linux haven't been keeping up with the
times...
Ummmm ... I'd say "benchmark" ....
Let’s just say, the Steam Deck wipes the floor with the Windows-based competition.
Extreme game orientation can mean serious deficits for
OTHER apps/intentions.