On 12 Nov 2024 04:52:07 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:

A few decades ago, I was informed of at least one case where
do-gooders had left hay for an overpopulation of deer. The deer
continued to die. Analysis showed the deer starved to death with
full stomachs, because their digestive systems lacked the enzymes
to digest the types of hay that were being left for them.

That doesn’t make any sense to me. There is essentially just one major indigestible material in grassy/leafy matter, and that is cellulose. Only certain kinds of bacteria know how to digest cellulose -- no vertebrate
does. So all herbivores have populations of bacteria like these in their
guts -- if you look at a herbivore, you will see it is basically an
elaborate system of digestive plumbing on legs -- a comfortable
environment for those bacteria, that handily collects the food for them.

And cellulose is cellulose. Whatever plant source the herbivore gets it
from, it’s going to get digested.

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On 2024-11-12, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On 12 Nov 2024 04:52:07 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:

A few decades ago, I was informed of at least one case where
do-gooders had left hay for an overpopulation of deer. The deer
continued to die. Analysis showed the deer starved to death with
full stomachs, because their digestive systems lacked the enzymes
to digest the types of hay that were being left for them.

That doesn’t make any sense to me. There is essentially just one major indigestible material in grassy/leafy matter, and that is cellulose. Only certain kinds of bacteria know how to digest cellulose -- no vertebrate
does. So all herbivores have populations of bacteria like these in their
guts -- if you look at a herbivore, you will see it is basically an
elaborate system of digestive plumbing on legs -- a comfortable
environment for those bacteria, that handily collects the food for them.

And cellulose is cellulose. Whatever plant source the herbivore gets it
from, it’s going to get digested.

A bit of web searching found a few references, and they appear to
be from reasonably credible sources:

6th and 7th paragraphs of this article: https://cpw.state.co.us/news/01132022/cpw-warns-public-dangers-illegally-feeding-wildlife

apparently basically the same textZ: https://coloradooutdoorsmag.com/2022/01/19/harmful-not-helpful/

9th paragraph: https://animalrangeextension.montana.edu/wildlife/private_land_wildlife_mgmt/winter-deer-feeding.html

not specific to deer but appears applicable: https://smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/smallfarms/how-starve-animals-full-stomach

middle of 2nd page:
https://www.maine.gov/ifw/docs/deer_winter_feeding.pdf

Thanks for triggering some learning.

--
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

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On 13 Nov 2024 05:04:17 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:

On 2024-11-12, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On 12 Nov 2024 04:52:07 GMT, Robert Riches wrote:

A few decades ago, I was informed of at least one case where do-gooders
had left hay for an overpopulation of deer. The deer continued to die.
Analysis showed the deer starved to death with full stomachs, because
their digestive systems lacked the enzymes to digest the types of hay
that were being left for them.

And cellulose is cellulose. Whatever plant source the herbivore gets it
from, it’s going to get digested.

6th and 7th paragraphs of this article: https://cpw.state.co.us/news/01132022/cpw-warns-public-dangers-illegally-feeding-wildlife

Even feeding hay can harm deer. In some cases, deer given grass
hay have starved to death with full stomachs because the hay did
not provide the balanced nutrition the deer needed.

Note that mention of “balanced nutrition”, not “lacked the enzymes to digest the types of hay”.

In other cases, deer given alfalfa hay died from bloating when the
alfalfa created froth in the stomach.

This is a well-known issue with alfalfa, I think it affects cattle and
sheep as well (both of which are popularly farmed here in NZ).

9th paragraph: https://animalrangeextension.montana.edu/wildlife/private_land_wildlife_mgmt/winter-deer-feeding.html

Feeding deer hay or corn can kill them, because they cannot always
digest it. Deer digestion involves protozoa and bacteria that help
break down food. Different micro-organisms help digest different
types of vegetation. If a deer has been feeding on aspen or
willows, it has built up the micro-organisms that digest only this
kind of vegetation. If this same deer suddenly fills its stomach
with corn or hay, it may not have enough of the corn- and
hay-digesting micro-organisms in its stomach to digest the food. A
deer can starve to death with a full stomach.

Interesting. Definitely more specific. By the way, deer are browsers,
are they not, not grazers. They eat bark, which is full of lignin
(which is what makes wood woody). This is an entirely different kettle
of fish from cellulose, and needs its own entirely different set of
specialist bacteria to digest.

Not sure what it is about corn: we can eat it no trouble, but then we
have to cook it first.

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