| Sysop: | Amessyroom |
|---|---|
| Location: | Fayetteville, NC |
| Users: | 43 |
| Nodes: | 6 (0 / 6) |
| Uptime: | 108:23:24 |
| Calls: | 290 |
| Files: | 905 |
| Messages: | 76,683 |
On 2024-12-21 08:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
Alan, 2024-12-20 18:02:
On 2024-12-20 01:46, Arno Welzel wrote:
Alan, 2024-12-19 04:22:iMessage let's you send and receive SMS messages.
On 2024-12-18 18:56, Andrew wrote:[...]
We all know from Apple's history that the last thing Apple wants is >>>>>> interoperability with other platforms (the proof is rampant everywhere). >>>>>And yet you won't provide it.
Weird.
Is iMessage or FaceTime available for Android or Windows or at least
compatible with anything else?
I would not call this "compatible" since you can use it in the same way
as with other Apple users.
Messages is compatible with any platform that sends and receives SMS messages.
Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 21 Dec 2024 17:04:26 +0100 :
The iPhone is a dumb terminal - devoid of functionality if you don't log >>> into the Apple mainframe servers 24/7/365 just for basic functionality.
I got an iPhone SE from my employer and can't reproduce this.
Even without internet and without connection to Apple it still works. I
can take pictures with it, listen to music which is stored on the device
and even call people if I only have GSM without internet.
So what exactly do you mean?
Arno,
Do you know that I've been using iOS & Android for many years?
Do you know that I *test* what they can and cannot do without accounts?
If not, then you need to TRY it yourself.
Let's take the simplest case possible, Arno.
a. Buy a new iOS device
b. Do NOT create a mothership account on it (i.e., Apple)
c. Tell us all what that device can do and cannot do
Then let's repeat that simplest case, Arno, for all other OSs.
a. Buy a new Windows or Android device
b. Do NOT create a mothership account on it (i.e., MS or Google)
c. Tell us all what that device can do and cannot do
Do you see a difference?
Is it astoundingly huge?
Why?
HINT: The iOS device can't do *anything* without that mothership account. Which is why iOS owners are logged into Apple servers 24/7/365 forever.
Yes. Even you.
Using <news:lso7ksFo80oU6@mid.individual.net>, Arno Welzel wrote:
And if you don't need the walled garden all the time, then you don't
need to be logged in all the time. So what?
Nobody on iOS is NOT logged into Apple's servers 100% of the time.
100% of iOS users are logged into Apple servers 100% of the time.
Which is why Android (not iOS) has by far the word market share.
That's what
Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 21 Dec 2024 17:10:31 +0100 :
You're always logged in. 24 hours a day. 7 days a week. 365 days a year. >>> That's "constant Internet access".
Maybe you are - but I am not. My employers iPhone SE is *not* always
logged in since I sometimes have it with me at places where there is no
network available. And the device still works and still can be used as
camera, music player, calculator etc..
Nope. You're wrong. You know nothing about how iOS works.
But see for yourself BEFORE you respond please.
Try this BEFORE you respond please.
1. Log out of the iCloud, Facetime, Messages, AppStore, etc.
Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 21 Dec 2024 17:09:15 +0100 :
Your iOS device does almost nothing without logging into Apple's servers. >>"Almost nothing"?
Arno - I thought you knew something about Android.
I thought you were smart. Not stupid.
I even thought you knew more about Android than I do, Arno.
But I must have been wrong.
a. Buy a brand new iPhone & pop a valid known-working SIM card in it
b. DO NOT EVER LOG INTO ANY APPLE SERVER
c. Try to do something simple - anything - like make a phone call
What do you think happens?
On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
Android exist.
<https://signal.org/>
Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public education.
On 22.12.24 08:59, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
On 21.12.24 17:13, Arno Welzel wrote:
Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-21 08:53:
On 18.12.24 09:15, Alan wrote:
On 2024-12-17 23:22, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
No. Proprietary and encryption are NOT a contradiction.
Don't argue from false positions.
You do not understand the concept of asymmetric secure end-to-end
encryption. Those who own the service provide the encryption? Seriously? >>>> Naive to the max.
You know the meaning of end-to-end-encryption?
Very stupid question. In this case it is a Zero-Trust issue.
In the developed world are not many encryption-users that would trust
either Google or Microsoft (there are more). It is not advisable to use
an encryption chain where one commercial company has the control over
the chain. Particularly when the company is located/headquartered in Trumpistan.
You know what a "Masterkey" or a "Backdoor" is?
Messages is compatible with any platform that sends and receives SMS
messages.
Yes, it is able to send and receive SMS - nothing else. In this meaning, iPhones are compatible to nearly every other computer or phone in the
world, since some kind of data exchange or phone calls is mostly possible.
I even thought you knew more about Android than I do, Arno.
But I must have been wrong.
No, you just don't tell what you *REALLY* mean.
If you want to express "one needs to create an Apple account to use an iPhone" than say it! And don't say, that an iPhone has to PHYSICALLY CONNECTED to the internet all the time!
Please tell all of us how you can do *anything* on the iOS device *without* >> logging into the Internet to *create* an Apple account on Apple's servers.
I am not talking about "logging in" anywhere!
I talk about ACTIVE NETWORK CONNECTION!
Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and
Android exist.
<https://signal.org/>
Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in
Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public
education.
Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:12:03 +0100 :
I even thought you knew more about Android than I do, Arno.
But I must have been wrong.
No, you just don't tell what you *REALLY* mean.
If you want to express "one needs to create an Apple account to use an
iPhone" than say it! And don't say, that an iPhone has to PHYSICALLY
CONNECTED to the internet all the time!
How is the Apple messaging going to work among other Apple users (other
than plain jane sms) without logging into an Apple server on the Internet?
How is Apple's facetime going to work without logging into an Apple server
on the Internet?
How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple server on the Internet?
If you don't log into Apple servers, Apple will brick your account, Arno. (Ask me how I know this).
And then you have to visit the Apple store with your government ID just to get Apple to let you log back in (when you had never ever logged out!).
Only Apple requires you to log into their servers to use YOUR device.
Nobody else.
Just Apple.
How is an iPhone even going to be initialized with the Internet Arno?
(Only after iPhone 14 and even then only with an eSIM can you initialize an iPhone WITHOUT the Internet Arno - and even then - it's over the cellular network).
The iPhone is a completely brain-dead dumb terminal if the user doesn't log into Apple servers every moment of every day of the rest of their lives.
Apple designed the iPhone as a dumb terminal.
No other operating system is anywhere near as brain dead as iOS is.
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:01:12 +0100 :
Messages is compatible with any platform that sends and receives SMS
messages.
Yes, it is able to send and receive SMS - nothing else. In this meaning,
iPhones are compatible to nearly every other computer or phone in the
world, since some kind of data exchange or phone calls is mostly
possible.
Hi Arno,
Bear in mind the guy you're conversing with, Alan Baker, is a moron.
He has an IQ of about 40 so he loves to argue about everything for fun.
Note that it used to be there is no iPhone in the world which can be initialized without connecting to the Internet. It's impossible. And
yet, Alan Baker claims he did the impossible.
Just as he claims to teach auto racing, Alan Baker doesn't know the first thing about racing. He claims to own bimmers and he doesn't know teh most basic of the simplest things about bimmers.
Alan Baker is an IQ 40 moron in everything.
As for the more recent iPhones, if they have an eSIM and if it's an iPhone
14 or greater, only after that can someone initialize it WITHOUT the Internet. But all iPhones prior to the 14 *require* the Internet to initialize.
<https://www.google.com/search? q=can+you+initialize+a+brand+new+iphone+without+internet>
No other operating system on the planet requires the Internet just to use
the phone. Just Apple.
The iPhone is nothing more than a dumb terminal without the Internet.
It can't even make phone calls.
Because Apple wants it this way. If you don't like that, don't use the devices - problem solved.
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:12:03 +0100 :
I even thought you knew more about Android than I do, Arno.
But I must have been wrong.
No, you just don't tell what you *REALLY* mean.
If you want to express "one needs to create an Apple account to use an
iPhone" than say it! And don't say, that an iPhone has to PHYSICALLY
CONNECTED to the internet all the time!
How is the Apple messaging going to work among other Apple users (other
than plain jane sms) without logging into an Apple server on the Internet?
How is Apple's facetime going to work without logging into an Apple server
on the Internet?
How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple server on the Internet?
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:07:13 +0100 :
Because Apple wants it this way. If you don't like that, don't use the
devices - problem solved.
With that idiotic statement, you're completely misunderstanding the point.
On 24.12.24 04:16, Arno Welzel wrote:
Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and >>>>> Android exist.
<https://signal.org/>
Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in
Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public
education.
Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.
Idiot. Merry Christmas.
Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-24 07:11:
On 24.12.24 04:16, Arno Welzel wrote:
Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and >>>>>> Android exist.
<https://signal.org/>
Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in >>>> Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public >>>> education.
Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.
Idiot. Merry Christmas.
Huh? <https://threema.ch> is not located in Switzerland? Or what do you
mean?
david, 2024-12-21 21:35:
Using <news:lso7ksFo80oU6@mid.individual.net>, Arno Welzel wrote:
And if you don't need the walled garden all the time, then you don't
need to be logged in all the time. So what?
Nobody on iOS is NOT logged into Apple's servers 100% of the time.
100% of iOS users are logged into Apple servers 100% of the time.
Which is why Android (not iOS) has by far the word market share.
That's what
No, Android has the market share because the devices are damn cheap. If iPhones would also be available for less than 100 USD like many cheap
Android devices, than the market share would be much higher.
Most people don't care for privacy, really. Only money is important.
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:12:48 +0100 :
Please tell all of us how you can do *anything* on the iOS device *without* >>> logging into the Internet to *create* an Apple account on Apple's servers. >>I am not talking about "logging in" anywhere!
I talk about ACTIVE NETWORK CONNECTION!
Please run this search and tell us what the results are when you do...
*how to activate brand new iphone 13 without internet*
On 2024-12-24 13:38, Arno Welzel wrote:
Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-24 07:11:
On 24.12.24 04:16, Arno Welzel wrote:
Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and >>>>>>> Android exist.
<https://signal.org/>
Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in >>>>> Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public >>>>> education.
Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.
Idiot. Merry Christmas.
Huh? <https://threema.ch> is not located in Switzerland? Or what do you
mean?
That you are implying that the Swiss use Threema simply because it is
Swiss made, not because it is the only one that passed their security
and privacy tests.
Andrew, 2024-12-24 05:18:
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:12:03 +0100 :
I even thought you knew more about Android than I do, Arno.
But I must have been wrong.
No, you just don't tell what you *REALLY* mean.
If you want to express "one needs to create an Apple account to use an
iPhone" than say it! And don't say, that an iPhone has to PHYSICALLY
CONNECTED to the internet all the time!
How is the Apple messaging going to work among other Apple users (other
than plain jane sms) without logging into an Apple server on the Internet? >>
How is Apple's facetime going to work without logging into an Apple server >> on the Internet?
How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple server on >> the Internet?
It wont't. But that was not the point. I talked about using the phone at
all. Even an iPhone does stop working COMPLETELY just because there is
no internet.
With that idiotic statement, you're completely misunderstanding the point.
Ok, then you don't care for this requirement and it is fine for you -
problem solved.
Of course - but this is not the point! You *require* a Google account
for many apps, so it is completely pointless if Android itself does not
need this to be used at all.
I know what you mean (see your quoted text below), but to be fair,
only can use quite a lot of apps - including several Google apps -
without a Google account.
Considering the absurdity of this
non-discussion, I can't be bothered to check all my apps, but I'm hard pressed to think of one or more of my apps which requires a Google
account.
Of course, I'm not so silly as to try to get all my apps from
non-Google app 'stores', so yes, I do have and use a Google account.
But
my point is that I *could* do without one and the large majority of my
apps would be fully functional and even the Google apps (Chrome, Maps, YouTube (,Google?) would be mostly functional.
*Apple's walled garden _murdered_ privacy*
As did Google and Microsoft.
So go ahead and create a fake account without personal information.
Well, with some creativity it's still possible to create a Google
account without any real personal information. (Whether such an account
is all that useful for using on an Android smartphone/tablet is abother matter.)
But this thread is about privacy and security and there's nothing less
private than logging into the Apple walled garden mothership 24/7/365.
*Apple's walled garden _murdered_ privacy*
As did Google and Microsoft.
So go ahead and create a fake account without personal information.
So go ahead and create a fake account without personal information.
Why do you need a Google Account, Frank?
Around here, Open Street Maps are pretty good, and they are gratis. You
can not say a blanket statement that they are horrendous.
I suspect it's part of Apple's plan to hinder re-use on another device.
So you mean "theft"?
Yes, he must refer to theft. Because re-using an iOS device is
absolutely no problem at all - if the previous owner unregistered the
device and thus made it possible for the new owner to set it up for his
own account.
Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 28 Dec 2024 12:44:21 +0100 :
Nope. Try it. Buy a new iPhone. Don't initialize it. Tell us what happens. >>>As I said - you can use it for phone calls. You only need to
"initialize" it when you want to use Apple services.
No. You're wrong, Arno. Even the Apple trolls don't know this.
You GUESSED what I said - you didn't UNDERSTAND what I said.
You simply GUESSED. And you guessed wrong, Arno.
No, I tested it with a real device.
Arno Welzel wrote on Sun, 29 Dec 2024 02:51:53 +0100 :
Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 28 Dec 2024 12:44:21 +0100 :
Nope. Try it. Buy a new iPhone. Don't initialize it. Tell us what
happens.
As I said - you can use it for phone calls. You only need to
"initialize" it when you want to use Apple services.
No. You're wrong, Arno. Even the Apple trolls don't know this.
You GUESSED what I said - you didn't UNDERSTAND what I said.
You simply GUESSED. And you guessed wrong, Arno.
No, I tested it with a real device.
It's impossible to initialize/activate an iOS device without connecting to Apple's mothership mainframe servers, Arno.
Think about that fact before you make statements like that please.
Remember, I know how iOS and Android work. You do not.
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:27:06 +0100 :
With that idiotic statement, you're completely misunderstanding the point. >>Ok, then you don't care for this requirement and it is fine for you -
problem solved.
This is a technical group, is it not?
There is no "problem" to solve other than to UNDERSTAND what Apple does.
The "problem" is only one out of a million people UNDERSTANDs Apple.
Because most people are incredibly ignorant about what Apple does.
Even if most people do not understand that rather astute observation,
nobody can deny that almost every one of the billions of Apple iPhone
owners is constantly logged into the Apple servers 24/7/365.
On 2024-12-24 04:09, Arno Welzel wrote:[...]
No, Android has the market share because the devices are damn cheap. If
iPhones would also be available for less than 100 USD like many cheap
Android devices, than the market share would be much higher.
Most people don't care for privacy, really. Only money is important.
Not "only", but money is certainly important. I need a number of
features, and I will not pay 600€ for them.
On 2024-12-24 13:38, Arno Welzel wrote:
Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-24 07:11:
On 24.12.24 04:16, Arno Welzel wrote:
Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and >>>>>>> Android exist.
<https://signal.org/>
Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in >>>>> Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public >>>>> education.
Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.
Idiot. Merry Christmas.
Huh? <https://threema.ch> is not located in Switzerland? Or what do you
mean?
That you are implying that the Swiss use Threema simply because it is
Swiss made, not because it is the only one that passed their security
and privacy tests.
There is no "problem" to solve other than to UNDERSTAND what Apple does.
What Apple does should be well known.
They've been doing this now for more than 15 years.
So why did you bring this up at all if you don't have a problem with it?
The "problem" is only one out of a million people UNDERSTANDs Apple.
Because most people are incredibly ignorant about what Apple does.
People are ignorant about EVERYTHING and not just Apple.
Nearly ALL companies do this.
Google Play Services are a requirement(!) for many apps.
Microsoft 365 also requires(!) an online account.
Even if most people do not understand that rather astute observation,
nobody can deny that almost every one of the billions of Apple iPhone
owners is constantly logged into the Apple servers 24/7/365.
Same as with Microsoft, Google and WhatsApp and a dozen other services.
Carlos E.R., 2024-12-24 14:02:
On 2024-12-24 13:38, Arno Welzel wrote:
Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-24 07:11:
On 24.12.24 04:16, Arno Welzel wrote:
Jörg Lorenz, 2024-12-22 16:58:
On 22.12.24 16:50, s|b wrote:
On Wed, 18 Dec 2024 00:35:16 +0100, Arno Welzel wrote:
On the other hand - messengers with end-to-end-encryption for iOS and >>>>>>>> Android exist.
<https://signal.org/>
Signal and Threema: https://threema.ch/en
Threema is the only messenger being accepted for public institutions in >>>>>> Switzerland. Particularly for law enforcement, military use and public >>>>>> education.
Of course - Threema is provided by a Swiss company.
Idiot. Merry Christmas.
Huh? <https://threema.ch> is not located in Switzerland? Or what do you
mean?
That you are implying that the Swiss use Threema simply because it is
Swiss made, not because it is the only one that passed their security
and privacy tests.
Well - "Swiss made" also means, they know the requirements for Swiss
public institutions better then companies from the US or other
countries. And even when companies from other countries provide the same level of security and privacy - still a Swiss company would be
preferrable for Swiss public institutions, don't you think so?
Signal or Matrix are not worse in this matter - but they are not Swiss companies.
Also see: <https://element.io/case-studies/tchap>
On 2024-12-25 18:19, Arno Welzel wrote:[...]
Well - "Swiss made" also means, they know the requirements for Swiss
public institutions better then companies from the US or other
countries. And even when companies from other countries provide the same
level of security and privacy - still a Swiss company would be
preferrable for Swiss public institutions, don't you think so?
No.
Signal or Matrix are not worse in this matter - but they are not Swiss
companies.
No, this is not correct. In the subject of privacy and security, they
are worse. At least Signal.
It really is not about being Swiss.
For example:
An end-to-end encryption is used to ensure the confidentiality of
WhatsApp. However, until recently, the automatic backup of the chats did
not offer the same security, according to a statement by the SNSF. This
is because the personal key to the data stored in the cloud was known to
the company.Jul 30, 2023
WhatsApp security test identifies weakness - SWI swissinfo.ch
<https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sci-tech/whatsapp-security-test-identifies-weakness/48699806>
<https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/rzjl7i/swiss_army_bans_whatsapp_telegram_and_signal_due/>
"Threema relies on its own servers in Switzerland, while Signal uses US companies like Amazon and Google. So if you want to use a service whose servers are located in Europe, Threema does seem to be the only game in
town. By the way, Threema is also subject to jurisdiction in
Switzerland, and unlike Signal, the Swiss also complies with the
provisions of the European General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)."
Arno Welzel wrote on Wed, 25 Dec 2024 18:07:27 +0100 :
There is no "problem" to solve other than to UNDERSTAND what Apple does.
What Apple does should be well known.
Agree - but there are many people on the Apple newsgroups who are clueless. All they know is the propaganda Apple feeds them to believe.
They've been doing this now for more than 15 years.
Agree. For example, Apple's strategy of not providing external memory hardware is likely designed to feed iCloud storage subscriptions.
So why did you bring this up at all if you don't have a problem with it?
I didn't bring it up. You did. I politely responded to what you brought up.
The "problem" is only one out of a million people UNDERSTANDs Apple.
Because most people are incredibly ignorant about what Apple does.
People are ignorant about EVERYTHING and not just Apple.
Agree. For example, some people think gravity is a force. They're stupid.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=why+is+gravity+not+a+force&ia=web>
Nearly ALL companies do this.
Agree; luckily for Android, Google doesn't require an account on the device for the device to work perfectly fine. Everyone knows this to be a fact.
Google Play Services are a requirement(!) for many apps.
Agree that <com.google.android.gms> is a requirement for many Android apps; but that's not the same thing as the device requiring a mothership account.
Only Apple devices require a mothership account just to activate them.
From your comments, I'm slowly realizing you don't appear to understand
there is a difference between an operating system versus apps on it.
Microsoft 365 also requires(!) an online account.
One of us doesn't understand what "Microsoft 365" is if you say that.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?t=h_&q=what+is+microsoft+365>
I'm slowly realizing you don't know the difference between an operating system versus a suite of software that runs on that operating system.
Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 28 Dec 2024 12:39:51 +0100 :
But this thread is about privacy and security and there's nothing less
private than logging into the Apple walled garden mothership 24/7/365.
*Apple's walled garden _murdered_ privacy*
As did Google and Microsoft.
So go ahead and create a fake account without personal information.
Why do you need a Google Account, Frank?
FACT:
a. Apple's iOS requires an intimate connection to the mothership;
b. Google's Android does not!
That's a huge difference in terms of privacy since an Android phone works just fine without putting a Google Account on that phone.
An iPhone can't even make phone calls without first connecting to the mothership and even after that, if you don't put a mothership account on
that iPhone, you can't even install apps so it's even more brain dead.
An Android phone works just fine WITHOUT a mothership account on it.
An iPhone does not.
Big difference in privacy.
Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 28 Dec 2024 12:41:24 +0100 :
I suspect it's part of Apple's plan to hinder re-use on another device. >>>So you mean "theft"?
Yes, he must refer to theft. Because re-using an iOS device is
absolutely no problem at all - if the previous owner unregistered the
device and thus made it possible for the new owner to set it up for his
own account.
Arno's statement is so absurd - it shows he has zero iOS understanding. Neither Arno nor the IQ 40 Alan Baker understands how APKs & IPAs work.
Andrew wrote on Wed, 1 Jan 2025 02:26:20 -0000 (UTC) :
So go ahead and create a fake account without personal information.
Why do you need a Google Account, Frank?
Oops. Arno said that, not Frank.
Arno Welzel wrote on Sun, 29 Dec 2024 02:51:53 +0100 :
Arno Welzel wrote on Sat, 28 Dec 2024 12:44:21 +0100 :
Nope. Try it. Buy a new iPhone. Don't initialize it. Tell us what happens.
As I said - you can use it for phone calls. You only need to
"initialize" it when you want to use Apple services.
No. You're wrong, Arno. Even the Apple trolls don't know this.
You GUESSED what I said - you didn't UNDERSTAND what I said.
You simply GUESSED. And you guessed wrong, Arno.
No, I tested it with a real device.
It's impossible to initialize/activate an iOS device without connecting to Apple's mothership mainframe servers, Arno.
Think about that fact before you make statements like that please.
Remember, I know how iOS and Android work. You do not.
The main reason for the "absurdity" of this discussion is that it's clear neither you nor Arno understand how Android works (since an Android phone does everything without a Google Account being set up on that phone).
Only one out of a million people understand how Android works, Frank.
Neither you nor Arno have any idea whatsoever how Android works, Frank.
Every single app on the Google Play Store repository is available to the Auroa app (which does NOT require a Google Account on the phone) Frank.
What's absurd is neither you nor Arno have any idea what an Android phone
can do WITHOUT having a Google Account on that phone.
I haven't had a Google Account on my Android phones for many years, Frank. And I can do more than you can do with that phone, Frank.
Andrew, 2025-01-01 03:02:
[...]
The main reason for the "absurdity" of this discussion is that it's clear
neither you nor Arno understand how Android works (since an Android phone
does everything without a Google Account being set up on that phone).
I *do* understand how Android works! And yes, I *know* that you don't
need a Google account to use Android!
I only explained, that there are apps(!) which need a Google account and
in that case it is completely irrelevant, if the OS itself needs that or
not!
You can not use Google Wallet without an account for example and there
are many other usecases where normal users just rely on Google services.
Not everybody is able to set up DAVx5 and host a server for
CardDAV/CalDAV to make sure adressbook and calendar are backed up and
can be used on other devices too.
Only one out of a million people understand how Android works, Frank.
No - even fewer people do so. You won't find more than a few tenthousand people on the world who really understand how Android works, since most people just *use* it and don't know anything at all about application manifests, permissions, sandboxing and so on.
But they don't care. People use devices and don't care about the requirements. People use services by Apple, Google, Microsoft, Meta and
so on - and they don't care!
[...]
Neither you nor Arno have any idea whatsoever how Android works, Frank.
I've been publishing apps for Android for more than 10 years now without knowning how Android works? You are really funny.
Every single app on the Google Play Store repository is available to the
Auroa app (which does NOT require a Google Account on the phone) Frank.
What's absurd is neither you nor Arno have any idea what an Android phone
can do WITHOUT having a Google Account on that phone.
I know that. I *use* Android devices without any Google account. But you
did not understand one single word I word - nothing at all.
I haven't had a Google Account on my Android phones for many years, Frank. >> And I can do more than you can do with that phone, Frank.
And I am an Android developer since 2008. What is your professional
expertise here besides your private experiences?
So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you still take pictures and listen to music or open the calendar and address book? Yes?
Why?
How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple server on >> the Internet?
It wont't. But that was not the point. I talked about using the phone at
all. Even an iPhone does stop working COMPLETELY just because there is
no internet.
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:35:46 +0100 :
How is Apple's App Store gonna work without logging into an Apple
server on
the Internet?
It wont't. But that was not the point. I talked about using the phone at
all. Even an iPhone does stop working COMPLETELY just because there is
no internet.
Good. Because Apple iOS devices are dumb terminals attached to the "walled garden" which itself is based purely on Apple's servers on the Internet.
Which is why 99.99% of iOS owners are connected to Apple's servers on the Internet 24/7/365. Every moment they're on the device. Apple tracks it all.
No other common consumer operating system is designed as a dumb terminal. Just iOS.
Worse, NOTHING on the iOS device works without Apple servers involved.
I wonder if you're aware that the iPhone or iPad can't even be activated without connecting to Apple's servers (which are clearly on the Internet).
Are you aware of that Arno?
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:37:10 +0100 :
So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you still take
pictures and listen to music or open the calendar and address book? Yes?
Why?
It's good you finally understand that the iPhone can't even be activated without the Internet so NOTHING WHATSOEVER WORKS without the Internet.
You're correct that once you've activated the iPhone on the Internet, then (and only then) it can make calls WITHOUT needing the Internet.
Nobody said otherwise.
And yes, the dumb-terminal iPhone can take pictures WITHOUT the Internet.
Big deal.
So, without the Internet every second of the day, the iPhone still can take pictures and make phone calls. Big deal.
But it can't do anything inside the walled garden that people love so much. It's just a dumb terminal, Arno.
All I ever wanted was for you to understand what it is.
And what it is, is a dumb terminal.
Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:37:10 +0100 :
So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you still take
pictures and listen to music or open the calendar and address book? Yes?
Why?
It's good you finally understand that the iPhone can't even be activated without the Internet so NOTHING WHATSOEVER WORKS without the Internet.
Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:[...]
Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.
One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of a
region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular connection. Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a practice in being off the grid.
badgolferman, 2024-12-27 12:56:
Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:[...]
Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.
One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of a region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular connection. Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a practice in being off the grid.
You can do this with OSMAnd as well.
Then there is the
lingering notion that the cellular provider will always know who and where >you are once you use their towers for a phone call or any data related >activity.
Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 13:37:10 +0100 :
So - initialize the thing and THEN TURN OFF INTERNET. Can you still take >>> pictures and listen to music or open the calendar and address book? Yes? >>> Why?
It's good you finally understand that the iPhone can't even be activated
without the Internet so NOTHING WHATSOEVER WORKS without the Internet.
You're correct that once you've activated the iPhone on the Internet, then >> (and only then) it can make calls WITHOUT needing the Internet.
Nobody said otherwise.
And yes, the dumb-terminal iPhone can take pictures WITHOUT the Internet.
Big deal.
So, without the Internet every second of the day, the iPhone still can take >> pictures and make phone calls. Big deal.
But it can't do anything inside the walled garden that people love so much. >> It's just a dumb terminal, Arno.
All I ever wanted was for you to understand what it is.
And what it is, is a dumb terminal.
Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.
One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of a
region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular connection. Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a practice in being off the grid.
On 12/27/24 8:00 AM, badgolferman wrote:
Then there is the
lingering notion that the cellular provider will always know who and where >you are once you use their towers for a phone call or any data related >activity.
You don't even have to make a call or use data. Just have service. I can
locate the wife's iPhone using most any device's browser. For example I can
do it with this Amazon Fire tablet's browser in an emergency like when
she's late bringing home lunch...
Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the Internet.
One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of a
region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular connection. Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a practice in being off the grid.
Then there is the
lingering notion that the cellular provider will always know who and where >>>you are once you use their towers for a phone call or any data related >>>activity.
You don't even have to make a call or use data. Just have service. I can
locate the wife's iPhone using most any device's browser. For example I can >> do it with this Amazon Fire tablet's browser in an emergency like when
she's late bringing home lunch...
In that scenario, perhaps *you* don't use any (mobile) data, but *she* does/did. Her location is not determined by cell/tower pinging, but by
her iPhone using the (mobile) Internet to supply her location.
But as badgolferman mentioned, the mobile *provider* - and hence law enforcement, etc. - will/can know the location of any phone which is in
range and not in Airplane mode, even if the phone does not make/receive
a voice call.
OsmAnd+ was my first and primary app. Used it a lot in rural/outback/ remote Australia, where there just isn't any Internet (other than
extremely expensive satellite Internet).
Besides Google Maps and OsmAnd, there are several other offline
navigation apps, such as HERE WeGo and Sygic, some of them are also
available on 'totally useless' iPhones! :-)
Other things (in addition to photos and navigation) to do with Internet-less devices (iPhones and Andoid), in no particular order:
- play music
- play/record videos
- play games
- read ebooks
- listen to FM radio (Android only)
- listen to podcasts
- work on 'Office' documents
- personal health, activity, sleep recording/analysis
- camping/campsite apps
- etc..
badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 11:56:55 -0000 (UTC) :
Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the
Internet.
One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of a
region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular connection.
Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a practice in being off the
grid.
Hi badgolferman,
I can converse differently with you than with the Apple trolls, where I'd note that Google Maps is likely not considered to be part of the fabled
Apple walled garden (which, itself, requires logging into Apple servers).
I'm not even sure if I'd consider Apple Maps to be in the walled garden.
Is it?
Can other people on other platforms use Apple maps WITHOUT an Apple ID?
Which is why 99.99% of iOS owners are connected to Apple's servers on the
Internet 24/7/365. Every moment they're on the device. Apple tracks it all.
Not only Apple. Microsoft and Google do this as well.
No other common consumer operating system is designed as a dumb terminal.
Just iOS.
Wrong.
Are you aware of that Arno?
Are you aware that you don't know anything at all?
Andrew wrote:
badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 11:56:55 -0000 (UTC) :
Nothing that people love in the walled garden works without the
Internet.
One thing I like about Google Maps is that you can download maps of
a region you plan to visit and use the app without any cellular
connection. Going to the ski resorts in West Virginia is a
practice in being off the grid.
Hi badgolferman,
I can converse differently with you than with the Apple trolls, where
I'd note that Google Maps is likely not considered to be part of the
fabled Apple walled garden (which, itself, requires logging into
Apple servers).
I'm not even sure if I'd consider Apple Maps to be in the walled
garden.
Is it?
Can other people on other platforms use Apple maps WITHOUT an Apple
ID?
There seems to be an internet version available. However unlike Google
Maps I don't see a way to include multiple stops.
https://beta.maps.apple.com/
Thanks, I didn't know that! But since I don't like the interface of
Apple Maps and don't use it, it's no surprise I haven't seen that.
Frank Slootweg wrote on 27 Dec 2024 14:14:18 GMT :
OsmAnd+ was my first and primary app. Used it a lot in rural/outback/
remote Australia, where there just isn't any Internet (other than
extremely expensive satellite Internet).
Besides Google Maps and OsmAnd, there are several other offline
navigation apps, such as HERE WeGo and Sygic, some of them are also
available on 'totally useless' iPhones! :-)
Other things (in addition to photos and navigation) to do with
Internet-less devices (iPhones and Andoid), in no particular order:
- play music
- play/record videos
- play games
- read ebooks
- listen to FM radio (Android only)
- listen to podcasts
- work on 'Office' documents
- personal health, activity, sleep recording/analysis
- camping/campsite apps
- etc..
There are many things an iOS or Android app can do without logging into a mothership mainframe server on the Internet (which murders your privacy).
But this thread is about privacy and security and there's nothing less private than logging into the Apple walled garden mothership 24/7/365.
*Apple's walled garden _murdered_ privacy*
Apple tracks *everything* you do on the walled garden as a result, where
most Android users are likely clueless Apple inserts your Apple ID into
every app - even free apps! - you download - which even Google doesn't do.
Why does Apple insert your Apple ID into every (even free) app you install?
I don't know why.
I suspect it's part of Apple's plan to hinder re-use on another device.
Since Android & Apple users are involved in this conversation, the Apple users are perhaps clueless that an Android free app can be installed on any Android device in the world (assuming the hardware is compatible).
It's the same with EVERY operating system other than Apple's where only
Apple prevents that free app from being installed on any other device
unless - yes - you guessed it - unless it has the very same Apple ID.
Arno Welzel wrote on Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:03:24 +0100 :
Which is why 99.99% of iOS owners are connected to Apple's servers on
the
Internet 24/7/365. Every moment they're on the device. Apple tracks
it all.
Not only Apple. Microsoft and Google do this as well.
Everything you claim, Arno, shows you do not understand how Android works.
Specifically, you are unaware that Android does not require a Google
Account set up on the phone - and the proof is that I don't have one.
Why is it that I can do everything I need to do on Android without that Google Account set up on my phone - and you can't do anything without it?
Seriously, Arno.
Your statements prove you know absolutely nothing about Android.
And no, I'm not rooted.
No other common consumer operating system is designed as a dumb
terminal.
Just iOS.
Wrong.
Only iOS requires you to activate the device with Apple's mothership
servers.
That you're not aware of that fact means you know nothing about iOS either.
Frank Slootweg wrote on 27 Dec 2024 16:19:15 GMT :
Then there is the
lingering notion that the cellular provider will always know who and
where
you are once you use their towers for a phone call or any data related >>>> activity.
You don't even have to make a call or use data. Just have service. I can >>> locate the wife's iPhone using most any device's browser. For
example I can
do it with this Amazon Fire tablet's browser in an emergency like when >>> she's late bringing home lunch...
In that scenario, perhaps *you* don't use any (mobile) data, but *she*
does/did. Her location is not determined by cell/tower pinging, but by
her iPhone using the (mobile) Internet to supply her location.
But as badgolferman mentioned, the mobile *provider* - and hence law
enforcement, etc. - will/can know the location of any phone which is in
range and not in Airplane mode, even if the phone does not make/receive
a voice call.
The fact the carrier knows who you are doesn't mean you have to then log
into every mothership server on the planet because you feel you're doomed.
I happen to have an undergrad degree in microbiology; most people don't. Hence, I know a LOT about keeping myself clean; which most people don't.
As a result, I know it's impossible to be sterile - but - it's eminently possible to keep myself clean(er) & free(er) of disease bearing germs.
The fact is I know a *lot* about cleanliness so I can keep myself cleaner than most people (since I'm aware of the pitfalls - which I then avoid).
In contrast, most people, since they're clueless, are fantastically filthy. They have no idea of anything. They don't know a bacteria from a virus.
They are ignorant - and hence - they claim things which are dead wrong.
People who are ignorant of microbiology - should not be chastising those
who happen to know a lot more than they ever will know about microbiology.
Same thing here on privacy - which is the topic of this thread after all. Change the story above to privacy and it's the same thing.
A. I know a lot about privacy; most people don't.
B. I keep my actions on the Internet private as I can; most people can't.
C. That doesn't make me wrong.
It just means I am more private than they are.
For someone to talk about someone seeking privacy with disdain is no different than that same clueless person talking about someone seeking to keep his hands and body clean due to their own ignorance of the topic.
People who are ignorant of privacy - should not be chastising those who happen to know a lot more about privacy than they ever will know about it.
Anyone who says they can be 100% private/anonymous on a phone is wrong.
But anyone who says you can't be more private/anonymous is also wrong.
The fact the carrier knows who you are doesn't mean you have to then log
into every mothership server on the planet because you feel you're doomed.
Can other people on other platforms use Apple maps WITHOUT an Apple
ID?
There seems to be an internet version available. However unlike Google
Maps I don't see a way to include multiple stops.
https://beta.maps.apple.com/
badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 17:55:50 -0000 (UTC) :
Thanks, I didn't know that! But since I don't like the interface of
Apple Maps and don't use it, it's no surprise I haven't seen that.
There are so many ways to do what badgolferman asked, all of which I've
done myself, so I could write a book on how to do offline routing.
Most people who recommend OSMAnd don't actually know anything about it.
While OSMAnd+/OSMAnd~/OSMAnd (which I'll refer to just as "OSMAnd" here)
can do offline routing, the public topo maps for Open Street Maps are horrendously inaccurate - compared to that of the free USGS topo maps.
If you're in the middle of the mountains in the US, and biking or hiking, then you can't beat the accuracy of the USGS geoPDFs which can be routed on inside of the free Avenza or Paper Maps apps on both Android and iOS.
On 2024-12-27 19:49, Andrew wrote:Hey, hey, hey!
badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 17:55:50 -0000 (UTC) :
Thanks, I didn't know that! But since I don't like the interface of
Apple Maps and don't use it, it's no surprise I haven't seen that.
There are so many ways to do what badgolferman asked, all of which I've
done myself, so I could write a book on how to do offline routing.
Most people who recommend OSMAnd don't actually know anything about it.
While OSMAnd+/OSMAnd~/OSMAnd (which I'll refer to just as "OSMAnd" here)
can do offline routing, the public topo maps for Open Street Maps are
horrendously inaccurate - compared to that of the free USGS topo maps.
If you're in the middle of the mountains in the US, and biking or hiking,
then you can't beat the accuracy of the USGS geoPDFs which can be
routed on
inside of the free Avenza or Paper Maps apps on both Android and iOS.
That's pointless to me. I live in Europe, no USGS maps here as far as I
know, and open street maps are very accurate here.
So do not use a general statement such as "Open Street Maps are
horrendously inaccurate".
Andrew <andys@nospam.com> wrote:
badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 18:01:02 -0000 (UTC) :
Can other people on other platforms use Apple maps WITHOUT an Apple
ID?
There seems to be an internet version available. However unlike Google
Maps I don't see a way to include multiple stops.
https://beta.maps.apple.com/
Hi badgolferman,
Thanks for responding normally, as we can converse like two humans should, >> interact instead of having to play those silly games the Apple trolls play. >>
I keep around an iPad 10th generation WITHOUT an Apple ID just to test what >> works and what doesn't work with the mothership - so I will test this out. >>
Note that Apple *required* the Internet just to "activate" that iPad, which >> the Apple trolls (like Alan Baker) claim they did WITHOUT the Internet
(which no longer shocks me that they're that ignorant or that they lie).
On that tenth-generation iPad which has no Apple ID assigned to it:
1. I opened Apple Maps (which was in the "Other" folder by default)
2. Apple Maps first asked "Get Notified when Friends Share their ETAs"
(Yeah, right. I think I can "Dismiss" that one, huh?)
3. Then it popped up "Introducing Hikes and Custom Routes"
(But there's no button to dismiss that one - just "Continue".)
4. Now I am in Apple Maps where it says "Location Service is Off".
However, even without location services turned on Apple Maps can route:
From: 100 Main Street, Redwood City, CA 94063
To: 100 Main St, Fort Worth, TX 76102
Apple piously warned me "Getting There Safely, Be safe and pay attention to >> your surroundings, Always observe posted signs and local laws", which, um, >> I'm sitting in my office chair, so thank you Apple for worrying about me.
Below that is "Add Stop" with a big fat blue plus sign "(+)".
So I add this stop: 100 Main St, Comfort, TX 78013
It seems to have worked for me. But maybe I'm using a newer version of
Apple Maps than you're using (I'm on iOS 18.0 and it says 18.2 is ready).
If this were Android, I know how to get the version of any app (using
Muntashirakon) but I don't know how to get the version of this Maps app.
On iOS, how do we get the version of the Apple Maps app anyway?
The link I provided was to the beta desktop version. You had asked if it works on other platforms. I used Windows 10 and Google Chrome for that one.
I didn’t see a way to add stops on that version, but maybe I missed it.
If this were Android, I know how to get the version of any app (using
Muntashirakon) but I don't know how to get the version of this Maps app.
On iOS, how do we get the version of the Apple Maps app anyway?
The link I provided was to the beta desktop version. You had asked if it works on other platforms. I used Windows 10 and Google Chrome for that one.
I didnót see a way to add stops on that version, but maybe I missed it.
If you're in the middle of the mountains in the US, and biking or hiking,
then you can't beat the accuracy of the USGS geoPDFs which can be routed on >> inside of the free Avenza or Paper Maps apps on both Android and iOS.
That's pointless to me. I live in Europe, no USGS maps here as far as I
know, and open street maps are very accurate here.
So do not use a general statement such as "Open Street Maps are
horrendously inaccurate".
badgolferman wrote on Fri, 27 Dec 2024 22:34:57 -0000 (UTC) :
If this were Android, I know how to get the version of any app (using
Muntashirakon) but I don't know how to get the version of this Maps app. >>>
On iOS, how do we get the version of the Apple Maps app anyway?
The link I provided was to the beta desktop version. You had asked if it
works on other platforms. I used Windows 10 and Google Chrome for that
one.
I didn�t see a way to add stops on that version, but maybe I missed it.
Well, I went to that link on my default Windows web browser and clicked on "Directions" and then I entered the two locations to get directions for:
<https://beta.maps.apple.com/>
From: 100 Main Street, Redwood City, CA 94063 To: 100 Main St, Fort Worth, TX 76102
Then I hit "Now" and then "Apply" and it failed to do anything.
So it's a Beta for sure.
https://beta.maps.apple.com/? saddr=100+Main+St%2C+100+Main+St+Redwood+City%2C+CA+94063+United+States&dirflg=d
Changing the browser to SRWare Iron, it failed differently, saying:
Maps Your current browser isn't supported. https://beta.maps.apple.com/unsupported https://support.apple.com/en-us/120585
(See supported browsers.)
Apparently Apple coders are sophomoric (fancy that) and don't know how to code anything (which, of course, I'm not surprised at since Apple sucks at writing code that works on anything not on the Apple platform itself).
I don't have Chrome on any platform but I tried it with Firefox.
<https://beta.maps.apple.com/>
From: 100 Main Street, Redwood City, CA 94063 To: 100 Main St, Fort Worth, TX 76102
When I hit "Now" and then "Apply", it failed to work even on Firefox.
It takes only so much to get sick of Apple's sophomoric coding (their apps always seem to have been written by high school kids) so I gave up.
Not only does it likely not add stops, it doesn't even work without them.
a. Buy a brand new iPhone & pop a valid known-working SIM card in it
b. DO NOT EVER LOG INTO ANY APPLE SERVER
c. Try to do something simple - anything - like make a phone call
What do you think happens?
The phone call works. BTDT
Arno Welzel wrote on Tue, 24 Dec 2024 04:14:10 +0100 :
a. Buy a brand new iPhone & pop a valid known-working SIM card in it
b. DO NOT EVER LOG INTO ANY APPLE SERVER
c. Try to do something simple - anything - like make a phone call
What do you think happens?
The phone call works. BTDT
Nope. Try it. Buy a new iPhone. Don't initialize it. Tell us what happens.
Only Apple requires you to initialize on their mainframe servers, Arno.
Nobody else.