• Re: Integral types and own type definitions (was Re: Suggested method f

    From Tim Rentsch@21:1/5 to Richard Heathfield on Sat May 3 20:03:46 2025
    Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:

    On 25/03/2025 11:55, Tim Rentsch wrote:

    Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:

    On 25.03.2025 05:56, Tim Rentsch wrote:

    Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> writes:

    [...]

    When I started with "C" or C++ there were not only 8-bit
    multiples defined for the integral types; [...]

    In C the correct phrase is integer types, not integral types.

    My apologies if I'm using language independent terms.

    The problem is that what was written used the word "integral"
    incorrectly.

    But "integer type" is also a problem. 'Integer' is a noun, not an
    adjective. To modify the noun 'type' you need an adjective that means
    of, pertaining to, or being an integer'. The only available candidate
    is 'integral'.

    Using a noun as a modifier to another noun is a perfectly normal
    English construction. It's called a noun adjunct. "Chicken soup"
    is an example. See

    https://en.wikipedia.org/Noun_adjunct

    Furthermore, there are other noun-as-modifier constructions in the
    original C standard. The C89/C90 standard has "function types",
    "character types", "signed integer types", "unsigned integer
    types", "integer constants", and "integer character constants", to
    give a few examples. In fact the C standard is rife with noun-noun
    phrases: "execution environment", "storage boundaries", "byte
    address", "bit representation", "language elements", "program
    construct", "character set" -- and that's just on page 2.

    I'll cheerfully accept "integer type" because, though clumsy, it's standardese. But if we're using English it's wrong to reject "integral type"; 'adjective noun' is far closer to the spirit of the English
    language than 'noun noun'.

    Both are perfectly fine, as far as what kind of constructions are
    allowed in English. The reason "integral types" is a worse choice
    than "integer types" is that "integral types" has a different
    meaning, and in particular an inappropriate meaning. The adjective
    "integral" refers to the /value/ of a number, regardless of what
    number system it is in. The noun "integer" used as a modifier refers
    to the number system. An integer number always has an integral
    value, but real numbers or complex numbers can have integral values
    without being integer numbers.

    At least until such time as the backroom
    boffins come up with a better adjective for 'of, pertaining to, or
    being an integer', I stand with a foot planted firmly within each
    camp.

    One word being an adjective is a red herring. Using "integer types"
    is better both because it is more consistent with other parts of the
    C standard and because the meaning is crisper due to there being
    less ambiguity as to what is meant.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Tim Rentsch on Sun May 4 14:04:44 2025
    On 04/05/2025 05:03, Tim Rentsch wrote:
    Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:

    On 25/03/2025 11:55, Tim Rentsch wrote:

    <snip>

    Tim, /please/ stop necroposting. When a long thread died out over a
    month ago, it is usually because the participants lost interest, or felt
    that anything worth saying on the topic had been said, or perhaps that
    the conversation had strayed too off topic or become too heated.

    Consider drawing the line at one week - I recommend you do not reply to
    posts older than that unless you have something quite exceptional to share.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Heathfield@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sun May 4 15:43:18 2025
    On 04/05/2025 13:04, David Brown wrote:
    On 04/05/2025 05:03, Tim Rentsch wrote:
    Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:

    On 25/03/2025 11:55, Tim Rentsch wrote:

    <snip>

    Tim, /please/ stop necroposting.  When a long thread died out
    over a month ago, it is usually because the participants lost
    interest, or felt that anything worth saying on the topic had
    been said,

    ...and all too often anything not worth saying.

    or perhaps that the conversation had strayed too off
    topic or become too heated.

    If the resurrection is to make an interesting observation about
    C, I think I could stand an exception, couldn't you?


    Consider drawing the line at one week - I recommend you do not
    reply to posts older than that unless you have something quite
    exceptional to share.

    Apparently you could. :-)


    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Richard Heathfield on Sun May 4 18:39:47 2025
    On 04/05/2025 16:43, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 04/05/2025 13:04, David Brown wrote:
    On 04/05/2025 05:03, Tim Rentsch wrote:
    Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:

    On 25/03/2025 11:55, Tim Rentsch wrote:

    <snip>

    Tim, /please/ stop necroposting.  When a long thread died out over a
    month ago, it is usually because the participants lost interest, or
    felt that anything worth saying on the topic had been said,

    ...and all too often anything not worth saying.

    or perhaps that the conversation had strayed too off topic or become
    too heated.

    If the resurrection is to make an interesting observation about C, I
    think I could stand an exception, couldn't you?


    Yes, that /could/ be a possible reason for the resurrection. You'd
    still need to think if it was worth it or not - I'm sure most of us
    could think of lots of observations about C that we would think of as interesting, but usually not worth posting about. And if it were really interesting, maybe starting a new thread would make more sense than
    posting to a dead thread.

    However, I saw nothing interesting about C in Tim's post - or anything particularly interesting and new to the thread about linguistics.

    Perhaps /you/ thought his reply was worth bringing the thread back to
    life - I can only speak for myself.


    Consider drawing the line at one week - I recommend you do not reply
    to posts older than that unless you have something quite exceptional
    to share.

    Apparently you could. :-)


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Heathfield@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sun May 4 19:02:59 2025
    On 04/05/2025 17:39, David Brown wrote:
    Perhaps /you/ thought his reply was worth bringing the thread
    back to life

    Not particularly; IIRC the woefully departed horse had already
    been thoroughly flogged, and - like you - I saw no reason to
    defibrillate it. My reply was addressed more to the general (but
    more topical) case, because I wouldn't want people to feel
    inhibited against making genuinely interesting replies just
    because they'd been on holiday, say, when the matter was
    discussed here.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Richard Heathfield on Mon May 5 11:29:23 2025
    On 04/05/2025 20:02, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 04/05/2025 17:39, David Brown wrote:
    Perhaps /you/ thought his reply was worth bringing the thread back to
    life

    Not particularly; IIRC the woefully departed horse had already been thoroughly flogged, and - like you - I saw no reason to defibrillate it.
    My reply was addressed more to the general (but more topical) case,
    because I wouldn't want people to feel inhibited against making
    genuinely interesting replies just because they'd been on holiday, say,
    when the matter was discussed here.


    Fair enough. I'd still encourage people to check the thread dates and
    consider whether their post-holiday posts are interesting enough to be
    worth bring back an old thread, but that is certainly a situation where
    posting to old threads can make sense.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tim Rentsch@21:1/5 to Richard Heathfield on Thu May 15 23:02:53 2025
    Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:

    On 04/05/2025 13:04, David Brown wrote:

    On 04/05/2025 05:03, Tim Rentsch wrote:

    Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:

    On 25/03/2025 11:55, Tim Rentsch wrote:

    <snip>

    Tim, /please/ stop necroposting. When a long thread died out over a
    month ago, it is usually because the participants lost interest, or
    felt that anything worth saying on the topic had been said,

    ...and all too often anything not worth saying.

    or perhaps that the conversation had strayed too off topic or become
    too heated.

    If the resurrection is to make an interesting observation about C, I
    think I could stand an exception, couldn't you?

    Consider drawing the line at one week - I recommend you do not reply
    to posts older than that unless you have something quite exceptional
    to share.

    Apparently you could. :-)

    I would like to respond here with some general comments about
    newsgroup posting that may be of some interest to some readers
    but don't have anything to do with the C language so some people
    may want to skip the rest of the posting on that basis. I think
    there is a general rule that (within limits) comments about
    topicality are always topical, but I recognize that some people
    may have no interest so out of courtesy I am giving early warning
    so they can stop reading here if they choose.

    When posting a followup, as opposed to starting a new topic, in
    most cases (and maybe even almost all cases), my reasons for
    posting are not to take part in some general discussion but
    because there are some specific points in the posting to which I
    am responding that in my opinion merit further comment. I expect
    that the person who wrote the posting being replied to has at
    least a fair chance of being interested, and also that other
    people might have some interest but that second aspect is not a
    prerequisite for my deciding to write a followup. As with all
    general rules there can be exceptions to the previous statements
    but those statements should hold most of the time.

    In the particular earlier case I was responding to some comments
    made by yourself (Richard Heathfield); my motivation for posting
    was mainly to give him an opportunity to see my reactions to
    various comments of his made earlier. (Both my comments and the
    comments made in the posting I was responding to were removed by
    David Brown, and so they don't appear here.)

    I also have a strong topicality filter -- and one made stronger
    in recent years -- in an effort to post articles only when they
    have some bearing on the C language. In this regard I am better
    than I used to be, and am generally happy with the results.

    As to the followup from David Brown, I don't know why he posted
    it. I have no interest in anything he has to say, and I have no
    reason to think he doesn't know this. I don't read postings from
    David, except sometimes inadvertently, and have made a public
    statement about that, so it isn't a secret. Also I don't respond
    to postings from David (naturally, since I don't read them), and
    respond to his comments (occasionally) only when they turn up as a
    result of being quoted in a followup posting to which I am
    responding for other reasons.

    It's possible there are some exceptions to the statements made
    in the last paragraph -- I'm not perfect, and sometimes I make
    mistakes -- but it is my intention to follow them without
    exception.

    I make an effort to be helpful and to contribute something positive
    (even if I might also disagree on some points) in my postings here.
    If someone feels my comments offer no value, I have no objection to
    a decision not to read them. I do regret that some people have this
    reaction, but I respect the right of individual choice when it
    doesn't infringe on others' rights, and that has to take precedence
    over any regret I might feel.

    I hope these comments have provided a better understanding of the
    thought processes underlying my decisions about whether and what to
    say in followup postings. Thank you for your attention.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)