November 11, 1989



ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO)--This evening saw

perhaps an unprecedented event in UFOlogy. KLAS-TV in Las Vegas,

Nevada has been airing a UFO special during the evening news

which began on Monday dealing with the UFO mystery and cover-up.

The series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began its coverage

with a history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s and moving

forward through the numerous sighting reports to the cattle

mutilations, which was aired last evening. As promised at the

close of last evening's show, George Knapp, a news anchorman for

Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a scientific person would be

featured on tonight's program who has claimed to work at Area 51,

the government's super-secret test range at Nevada Test Site at

Mercury, Nevada.

Indeed, quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a physicist who

claimed that he had worked on a project at Area 51 involving

flying disks provided by alien intelligences.

Over the last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating to

possible involvement with the government in projects of this

nature at the Nevada test site. Up to now, the stories have been

of a very speculative nature. Although the material presented by

Robert Lazar remains unconfirmed, enough information has been

disclosed that ParaNet's large investigative staff in Nevada has

started an intensive investigation into this release. Both Lazar

(formerly known only as "Dennis") and Lear have appeared on

Channel 8 -- Lear appearing on numerous occasions together will

Bill Cooper discussing Lear's famous 'ET Hypothesis.' On a past

KLAS-TV report, Lear was shown to have traveled to locations

appearing to overlook the test site which purportedly provided a

good view of the objects as they flew into the night sky. Lear

attempted to shoot video of an object as it maneuvered through

the night sky during last summer, however nothing was captured on

the tape of a substantive nature. Lear also relates that his

group was harassed by a Lincoln County sheriff following his

attempts to take the pictures.

Below is a transcript of the program that aired this

evening. All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator of the

segment. We were as accurate as possible on the transcription,

however there are a couple of places where comments were edited

out due to inability to understand what was being said.

Further reports will be provided as information becomes

available.

=================================================================



We've been working on the story for some time....UFO

researchers claim that there is a secret government within our

government. Now this may be hard to believe coming from the UFO

perspective, but we have learned that Watergate and the Iran

Contra scandal that factions within our government can and do

pursue their own hidden agendas outside of the law; outside the

control of the Congress or the knowledge of the American people.

This is exactly the type of operation that we hear about tonight.

It's a chilling scenario with worldwide implications that may

have its roots right here [Las Vegas, Nevada].

Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevada Test Site, is

no longer considered a secret. The fact that secretive things

go on here isn't evident; even to the Soviets who make daily spy

flights over the facility to take a peek at what's going on.

These photos, never before shown in public, are about as close as

anyone will ever come to seeing what the place looks like again.

The dry bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile

long runway and some highly sophisticated radar and detection

equipment. Its been known by many names over the years --

Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk Works. If ever there was a place

to test the secret new technology, this is it. And that's

exactly what has been done here for decades.

Area 51 is where Francis Gary Powers and the other U-2

pilots were trained in the 50s. And, where the U-2 itself was

developed. The SR-71 spy plane that spotted Soviet missiles in

Cuba in the early 60s were also developed at 51. 51 is where

Stealth technology was nurtured, where Star Wars devices are

still tested, and where all manner of CIA [unknown] business has

been plotted and refined. It's the perfect place for secret

things, but of course, that's no secret. 51 is ringed by the

forbidden vastness of the Nevada test site; by the looming Groom

Mountain and by sparsely populated desert expanses. But the

people that do live out here have no love lost for the military,

but they're conservative, patriotic and they mind their own

business.



Interviewer questioning a nearby resident of Area 51: "Ever see

something that you can't explain?"

Resident: "Sure, lots of times."

Interviewer: "Care to elaborate?"

Resident: "No." (Laughter).



On any given night at the Rachel Bar and Grill, you might

find three or four people who work at Area 51. They are among

the flowing Budweiser and the cowboy hats. You might find them,

but they are not going to talk to. Not about the things that

they have seen over the mountain. A steady trickle of curiosity-

seekers flows through here; strangers, drawn by strange stories

of lights in the night sky. Their questions also go unanswered.

No one who has worked at Dreamland has ever publicly acknowledged

what so many people have suspected for years: That alien

technology is being tested in the Nevada desert.

The speculation first surfaced in documents obtained by UFO

researchers. Documents about something called Project Aquarius.

The document allegedly prepared for an organization called MJ-12,

states that a program to fly recovered alien spacecraft was

established in 1972 and is continuing in Nevada. The National

Security Agency has confirmed it does have a Project Aquarius but

denies that it has anything to do with flying saucers. NSA will

not say what Project Aquarius is.

Speculation was heightened in 1984, when the Air Force

seized nearly 90,000 acres around Groom Lake. The action was, by

most accounts, illegal. During Congressional hearings about the

land grab, Congressman John Siberling grilled the military about

the legal authority used in the action and was told the authority

was at a much, much higher level than the Air Force.

Siberling asked what authority is higher than the laws of the

United States? The Air Force official said he could respond, but

only in a closed briefing. In 1987, when the Air Force sought to

renew its stranglehold on the Groom range, news articles once

again mentioned the talk about alien spacecraft and subsequent

articles in national magazines quoted un-named sources about

things of alien origin flying in Nevada. Things that would make

film-maker George Lucas drool. Despite the speculation, no one

who knew Area 51 from the inside ever talked publicly about the

saucer story.



Bob Lazar: "Well, there's several uh, actually nine uh flying

saucers, flying disks that are out there of extraterrestrial

origin." The live interview with the shadowy "Dennis" drew

international attention. Portions were broadcast by radio in six

European countries, and in a nationally televised TV special in

Japan.

Despite numerous inquiries and "feelers," "Dennis" has

remained anonymous until now. His real name is Robert Lazar. A

young scientist with eclectic interests. The choice of "Dennis"

was an inside joke -- he says that's the name of his superior at

Groom Lake. It wasn't a joke to Dennis.



Lazar: "He called right after and said, 'Do you have any idea

what we're going to do to you now?' and I said no, and he hung up

the phone."



Lazar's story is by any standard, fantastic. He says he's

telling it in order to protect himself. He said he was hired to

work in area called S-4 which is a few miles south of Groom Lake.

At S-4, he says, are flying saucers, anti-matter reactors and

other working examples of technology that is seemingly beyond

human capabilities.



Lazar: "Right. This stuff came from somewhere else. I know it

is hard to believe, but it is there and I saw it. I know what

the current state-of-the-art is in physics and it it can't be

done."



Checking out Lazar's credentials proved to be a difficult

task. He says he holds degrees in physics and electronics, but

the schools that we contacted say they've never heard of him. He

says he also worked as a physicist at Los Alamos National

Labs where he worked with one of the world's largest particle

beam accelerators, a half-mile long 'behemoth' capable of

generating seven-hundred million volts. Los Alamos officials

told us they have no record of Robert Lazar ever working there.

They were either mistaken or were lying. A 1982 phone book from

the Lab lists Lazar right there among the other scientists and

technicians. A 1982 news clipping from the Los Alamos newspaper

profiled Lazar and his interest in jet cars. It, too, mentioned

his employment at the Lab as a physicist. We called Los Alamos

again, and an exasperated official told us he still had no

records on Lazar. EG&G, which is where Lazar says he was

interviewed for the job at S-4, also has no record. It's as if

someone has made him disappear.



Lazar: "Well, they're trying to make me look non-existent to the

places that I called...."

Interviewer: "Explain. Called where?"

Lazar: "Well, the schools that I went to; the hospital that I

was born at; past jobs, and nothing comes up with my name on it."



He smiles, but out of futility, knowing the whole thing must

sound ridiculous. According to Lazar, his employer was the

United States Navy. He says he and other government employees

would gather near EG&G, fly to Groom Lake, then a very few people

would get into a bus with blacked out or no windows and drive to

S-4.



Interviewer: "You get off the bus, what do you see?"

Lazar: "A very interesting building. Its got a slope of

probably about 30 degrees which are hangar doors, and it has

textured paint on it, but it looks like sand. It's made to look

like the side of the mountain that it is in, whether it's to

disguise it from satellite photographs or what...."



He says he was never told exactly what he would be working

on, but figured it had something to do with advanced propulsion.

On his first day he was told to read a series of briefings, and

immediately realized how advanced the propulsion really was.



Lazar: "The power source is an anti-matter reactor. They run

gravity amplifiers. There is actually two parts to the drive

mechanism. It's a bizarre technology. There is no physical

hookups between any of the systems in there. They use gravity as

a wave using wave guides that look like microwaves."



It took awhile, Lazar says, before he actually saw one of

the flying disks, however there were hints everywhere.



Lazar: "Right. They had a poster, and it looked like a

commercial poster, like it was lithographed, like you could buy

it at K-Mart or someplace, but they were all over the place and

it had the disk that I coined the term 'the floor model' which

lifted off the ground about 3 feet out at the area, in the Dry

Lakes area, and the caption on it said 'They're here.' These

posters were all over the place."



Later, he got to see the real thing.



Lazar: "When I was led in, it was the first time that I saw the

'floor model' in the hangar sitting down, and I was told they

could have walked me in the front door but they purposely wanted

to walk me by it. I was told not to say anything and to keep my

eyes forward and walk past the disk to the office area. And I

did. And as we went by it, I just kinda stuck my hands on it,

just to run it alongside the thing and uh ....After that I got to

see actually lift off the ground and operate."

Interviewer: "You actually got to see more than one?"

Lazar: "Yeah. The hangars are all connected together. There

are large bay doors between each one. There were nine total that

I saw, each one being different. Like they had the assortment

pack."



Security at S-4 was oppressive Lazar said, and his superiors

used fear and intimidation almost as a brainwashing tool.



Lazar: "They did everything but physically hurt me."

Interviewer: "They put a gun to your head?"

Lazar: "Yeah."

Interviewer: "You mean they actually put a gun to your head?"

Lazar: "They did that even in the original security briefing.

Guards there with M-16s. Guys there slamming their fingers into

my chest, screaming into my ear, they were pointing weapons at

me. Like I said, it's not a good place to work."



That fear factor would surface later. Lazar agreed to

undergo a polygraph exam as part of this report. Polygrapher Ron

Clay asked about the technology that Lazar had seen.



Polygrapher: "Did you knowingly lie when you had actually seen

anti-gravity propulsion in operation?"

Lazar: "No."



The results of this exam were inconclusive. Lazar appeared

to be truthful on one test; deceitful on a second. Clay

recommended that a second examiner be brought in. Polygrapher

Terry Tabernetti (sp?) runs a corporate security operation and is

a former Los Angeles police officer. He put Lazar through four

tests and concluded there were no attempts to deceive.

Tabernetti sent his test results to a third polygrapher who

agreed the results appeared truthful. The charts were then sent

to a fourth examiner who did not agree suggesting that Lazar

might be relating information he'd learned from someone else.

The polygraphers concurred and decided they would not issue a

final statement on truthfulness until more specific testing can

be conducted. And that's where it stands.

Tabernetti believes the difficulty in determining Lazar's

truthfulness stems from the fear that was drilled into him.



Lazar: "Well, I am telling the truth. I've tried to prove that.

What's going on up there could be the most important event in

history. You're talking about contact, physical contact and

proof from another planet, another system, another intelligence.

Thats got to be the biggest event in history, period. And, it's

real and it's there. And I had an extremely small part in it.

I'm convinced that what I saw is absolute proof of that. There

is no way that we could have created those disks. There is no

way we could have made the disks, the power supplies, anything

that goes with it."



Lazar says he has no intention of going on any UFO lecture

circuit. He is not looking to do any additional interviews. In

fact, he was not too crazy about doing this one. He did it after

certain unfavorable things started happening in his life, and he

did it because he feels that whoever is running the show up at S-

4 is perpetrating a fraud on the American people and the

scientific community.



================================================================= on the American peo
telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23
---
■ Synchronet ■ Rick's BBS telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23

November 13, 1989



ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO) -- In our

continuing coverage of the remarkable revelations coming out of

Las Vegas, Nevada, here is the next installment to the program

aired on November 13, 1989 by television station KLAS-TV and

George Knapp.



=================================================================

News Anchor persons:

A former government scientist has alleged that the U.S.

military is flying recovered UFOs at a secret base in the Nevada

desert. The allegations about the secret facility near the Groom

Mountains first surfaced on Eyewitness News on last Friday

[November 10, 1989].

Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of the

flying saucers being tested and that they were not built on

Earth. George Knapp has more on the continuation of our series

on UFOs.



Lazar: "Yeah. It was obvious it came from somewhere else, uh,

other than Earth."



Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that the technology he saw

being tested at a secret base in the Nevada desert is of alien

origin, and for Lazar the proof is, at least, partially in the

furniture. One of the nine flying disks he says he saw at the

base, which was designated S-4, looks exactly like this UFO

photographed in Europe [Photo of UFO shown]. Lazar called it

the "sport model."



Lazar: "I gave everything names -- the top hat one and you know

the jello mold and, uh, the sport model operated without any

hitches at all. I mean, it looked new. If I knew what a new

flying saucer looked like. One of them looked like it was hit

with some sort of a projectile. It had a large hole in the

bottom and a large hole in the top with the metal bent out like

some sort of, you know, large caliber 4 or 5 inch had gone

through it."



Even before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says, he

suspected that the ship came from somewhere else. The

realization slapped him in the face the first time he glimpsed

the inside of the disk.



Lazar: "I got to look inside and it had really small chairs. I

think that was the first confirmation I had. That was just a

shocking thing because everytime before that I was able to label

it. This is just a little advance that a group of scientists had

formed and, you know, they're keeping it secret, and yeah, we

could have built a big disk like that, and yeah, that's no

problem, and, you know, we could have adapted the use(?) to make

it fly, but why does it have little furniture inside? [garbled].

And things began to click together just all too fast."



A few of the disks had been completely dismantled to find

out how they worked, Lazar says, but others were fully

operational. A Japanese TV network created this animated version

of Lazar's story after his first interview with us aired in May

[showing video]. Lazar says the dramatization is similar to a

test flight he witnessed.



Lazar: "The bottom of it glowed blue and began to hiss like any,

like high voltage does on a round sphere. It's my impression

that the reason that they're round and have no sharp edges is to

contain the high voltage like, uh, if you've seen a high voltage

system's insulators -- things are round or else you get a corona

discharge. In either case, it began to hiss as in high voltage

and it lifted off the ground quietly except for that little hiss

in the background, and that stopped as soon as it reached about

20 or 30 feet."



Lazar says the test of the sport model was a short one --

that it made only a few moves before setting back down. He

didn't see who was actually flying the craft, but was very

impressed, nonetheless.



Lazar: "Well, there's no action reaction system to it. There's

no, like in a jet engine, exhaust gas being thrown out -- no

propeller, no noise. It's just, for all intents and purposes,

magic."



To Lazar's knowledge, the flying disks are not being used,

for say, any flights to Jupiter. He said excessive caution and

intense secrecy contributed to the plodding pace of the program

and were a main source of his disenchantment.



Lazar: "It's just unfair, outright, not to put it in the hands

of the overall scientific community. There are people much more

capable of dealing with this information, and by this time would

have gotten a lot further along than this small select group of

people working out in the middle of the desert. They don't even

have the facilities, really, to completely analyze what they're

dealing with."



Gene Huff: "Well he was being quiet. If he kept me abreast of

anything, he kept me abreast of the security checks -- they'd

randomly drop by his house. They'd threaten his life; they'd

threaten his wife's life. They had done all that so we really

didn't converse, I mean, he really was adhering to the program."



Gene Huff is a Las Vegas real estate appraiser. A regular

guy who just happens to have a friend in the flying saucer

business. He learned about Lazar's S-4 experiences only after a

long period. Lazar is anxious for people to know that he didn't

just run right out and spill the secrets of the universe, and

that some things are properly kept confidential.



Lazar: "I did not believe that this should be a security matter.

Some of it, sure. But, just the concept that there's definite

proof, and uh, we even have articles from another world, another

system, you just can't not tell everyone. A lot of people don't

believe that. But, I do."



When he reached what he felt was his bursting point, he took

Huff and a few others to the edge of the Groom Mountains to see

the flights for themselves. A total of five witnesses on two

consecutive weeks managed to dodge security patrols long enough

to see the strange glowing object lift above the mountain.



Huff(?): "Uh, it came up above the same mountain. It moved

around. It did a step move -- it actually went up in the air

like this [showing details with hands] and it hovered then

dropped way down then it just floated around and cruised around.

It starts coming up the mountain range...."



This home video tape was recorded during one of the trips to

the Groom Mountains [showing video tape. A lot of

talking....Object in sight....Mention of brightness of the

object....].

Admittedly, the tape proves very little by itself because,

with the distance and darkness, there are no reference points

other than the alleged flying disk, but Lazar's information about

the time and location of the test flight proves correct -- not

once but twice. That, according to our off-camera interviews

with each of the other witnesses. Gene Huff describes his second

sighting:



Huff: "Through the telescope we could see an elliptical-shaped

light. You can only get so close even with a telescope to a

secure facility. Anyway, it came up by us very rapidly. It

glowed and glows brighter like a star and we almost got the

feeling that it was going to explode, it glowed so brightly. We

backed up behind the car then it went down and glowed back up a

little bit and then very softly glided back over, back where the

mountains where it came up, hovered for awhile, and then that's

that....Just like you see in the movies."



Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside knowledge"

of the flying disks at the test site -- he is just the only

person to say so publicly. We have communicated with several

people who say they know of the saucer program. A technician in

a highly sensitive position told us it is "common knowledge among

those with high security clearances that recovered alien disks

are stored at the Nevada test site." A Las Vegas professional,

who once served in the military and was stationed at the test

site, said he saw a flying disk land outside the boundaries of

Area 51 -- that it was quickly surrounded by security personnel

and that he was taken away and debriefed for several hours. A

man who once worked at Groom Lake as a technician, at our

request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently walked

into the wrong hangar and saw what appeared to be a large

metallic disk under a tarp. It was being examined by men in lab

coats. And, an airman who worked at Nellis at a radar

installation says he and his fellow servicemen watched over a

period of five nights, unusual objects flying over the Groom

Mountains. He says the radar images indicates the objects zoomed

into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then would stop

on a dime, and that nothing we have is capable of doing that.

The airman says that when word of his sighting got out, he was

ordered to turn off his radar sensors for that area and told to

keep quiet about the matter because it did not happen.

None of this means that the military is actually flying

alien spacecraft in the Nevada desert. It could all perhaps be

explained as some other secret program. Lazar insists that's not

the case.

We put the matter to the U.S. Navy, which according to

Lazar, is running the saucer show. Four different naval offices

were contacted. All denied having any information in their

files. The Naval Research Lab said it conducted a thorough

search but found "zip." Naval Intelligence said much the same

thing, adding, it is not required to create a file where one

doesn't exist. A side note: We also requested files on a UFO

sighting over Tremonton, Utah in 1952. The Navy spent more than

a thousand hours studying film of that sighting -- a fact that's

been noted in several publications -- but, for purposes of our

request, the Navy couldn't find those files either.



Lazar: "The group that runs this project, whether it really is

the Navy or they just say that, apparently these people have

executive power -- they don't report to anyone."



Tomorrow, more troubling allegations of the military

potential of alien technology.



=================================================================

tions of the military

potential of alien technology.



=================================================== telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23
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■ Synchronet ■ Rick's BBS telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23

November 14, 1989



ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO) -- In our

continuing coverage of the Riddle of Area 51, here is yet another

installment of the KLAS-TV program being aired in Las Vegas,

Nevada featuring Bob Lazar, who has 'come out of the closet' so

to speak with information regarding government testing of UFOs.



=================================================================



Just over this ridge [showing a photo of Area 51], tucked

inside the test tubes of a hidden government base, the secrets of

the universe may be unfolding. The area is designated S-4, and

according to one man who claims to have worked there, S-4 harbors

scientific achievements that would astonish our deepest

thinkers. It is technology that, if it exists, could change the

world, but is allegedly bottled up by military minds.



Lazar: "It's not an overall government project. It's not

something that Congress appropriates money for. 2 billion is for

this; 15 billion for flying saucers; 8 billion for Star Wars. It

doesn't go like that. I don't believe that they have any

knowledge of it at all."



The technology that Bob Lazar says he saw extends far beyond

flying saucers. An anti-matter reactor allows the spaceships to

produce their own gravitational fields, he says, such a

technology, if real, would answer UFO skeptics who argue that

aliens could never visit Earth because the distances between

worlds are too great, even at the speed of light.



Lazar: "Gravity distorts time and space. Just like if you had a

water bed and put a bowling ball in the middle. It warps it down

like that -- that's exactly what happens to space. Imagining

that you were in a spacecraft that could exert a tremendous

gravitational field by itself you could sit on any particular

place and turn on the gravity generator and actually warp space

and time, and fold it. By shutting that off, you'd click back

and you'd be a tremendous distance from where you were but time

would not have even moved because you essentially shut it off. I

mean it is so far fetched, people....it's difficult for people to

grasp, and as stubborn as the scientific community is they'll

never buy it, but this is, in fact, that's just what happens."



Actually, Lazar's explanation is very close to mainstream

scientific thought, and can be traced directly to Einstein. The

difference is scientists regard it as theory only. There is much

that science still doesn't know.



Dale Etheridge (Scientist): "There are people who say that our

main problem with that is we don't know what gravity is. It's

this magical force that acts at a distance. We can describe how

it behaves -- that's what the law of gravity is -- it's just a

description of how it behaves, but it says nothing about what

gravity really is."





We'll use Etheridge as our barometer of scientific thought.

He says we cannot produce gravity; that there's no such thing as

a working anti-matter reactor, and that we have yet to figure out

a way to get around the speed of light. He also concedes,

though, such things are possible.



Etheridge: "Yeah. And really we don't know what's possible as

there could be other civilizations out there several hundred

years or so -- a thousand years, even a million years ahead of

us -- that have found a way to circumvent this. We have no way

of knowing for sure."



Lazar: "Well, the thing is when you harness gravity, you harness

everything. It's the missing piece in physics right now. We

really know very little about gravity."



At least that's the way it used to be. Lazar says the

technology to harness gravity not only exists but is being tested

at S-4. And, if such technology is beyond human capabilities, it

must have come from someplace else. It's more than conjecture,

he says, because he also saw an element that cannot be found on

the periodic chart. The element, called 115, can be stored in

lead casings much like this one [showing a lead circular

container]. Lazar says the government has 500 pounds of it, and

it cannot be made on earth.



Lazar: "It would be almost impossible; well, it is impossible to

synthesize an element that heavy here on Earth."



Interviewer: "At least right now."



Lazar: "I don't think that you can ever synthesize it. The

amount of....you essentially have to assemble it by bombarding it

with protons if....atom by atom, it would take an infinite amount

of power and an infinite amount of time. The substance has to

come from a place where super-heavy elements could have been

produced naturally.



And what sort of place is that?



Lazar: "Next to a much larger sun where there would be greater

mass. Maybe a binary star system -- a super-nova -- somewhere

where there is just a bigger release of energy to synthesize

these things naturally. It has to be a naturally occurring

element."



115 is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says. By

bombarding 115 anti-matter is produced. A kilo of anti-matter

could produce the energy equivalent of 46 ten-megaton hydrogen

bombs, and comparing the energy potential of anti-matter to, say,

the Hoover Dam would be like comparing planets to grains of sand.

115 could also make one heck of a bomb.



Lazar: "We're talking about hundreds and hundreds of megatons

off a small piece of it. It sounds incredible, but total

conversion of matter to energy would release that amount of

power. And it isn't that difficult to take....get the energy out

of it. So it's not something you'd ever want to fall anyone's

hands."



The dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be the

reason Lazar was hired to work at S-4. There was an accident, he

says, back in April 1987. An accident that was passed off as an

unannounced nuclear test.



Lazar: "Some people got killed. I was told flat out I was one

of the people that were to replace these guys."



Is this why the government might be keeping the whole matter

a secret? Because of the military potential of alien technology?

Lazar says he believes the Soviet Union was once part of our

research on the flying disks, but that the U.S. kicked the

Soviets out after making some sort of discovery. He also

believes the program at S-4 is operated with funds allocated to

Star Wars research, but says he can't prove it. Some UFO

researchers suspect the government is test flying alien craft so

that it can one day master the technology and claim it was made

in the good old U.S.A., thus obscuring the possibility of alien

visitations.



Stanton T. Friedman: "I think they have the duty to inform us.

At least to the bare bones of what's going on. I don't want

technological stuff put out on the table. I mean, I worked on

classified projects for 15 years, and I don't think we need

another weapon's delivery system. But I think the government

does have the responsibility to release information that, indeed,

the planet is being visited. Probably it should be done in

conjunction with the Soviets."



Lazar: "I don't think that it will get to that level. They're

not going to have a fleet of them and fly them around and....I

don't think you need to do that. If you're looking at them from

a weapons point of view, you're looking at an incredibly powerful

device. You only need one to operate. You don't ever need to

come public with it. You may want to learn more about it should

it ever break which is....might be what they're doing. Uh...."



Interviewer: "They've got one...."



Lazar: "Oh, they've got a few. Yeah."



Lazar is the first to admit that his story is tough to

swallow. He submitted to polygraph exams that opened up

sensitive parts of his personal life, and fully expects to be

ridiculed or perhaps punished for his revelations. His desire to

explain what really happened at S-4 took us to Layne Keck, a

licensed experienced hypnotherapist who quietly and privately

tried to help Lazar remember details of the many briefing papers

he says he read.



Keck: "I have no clue as to what we were getting to, and he

started saying that there were pictures of what I thought was

desks on the wall. Well as it turned out, it was disks that he

was referring to. And, at that moment, I realized we were into

something that was pretty heavy."



Keck does not exaggerate his claims for hypnosis. He

regards it as a useful tool for uncovering some lost memory. He

says people are quite capable of lying under hypnosis, but says

the technique can be of help in determining truth. What's his

opinion of Lazar's truthfulness?



Keck: "It tells me that his subconscious mind believes totally

all of these things."



Lazar has long suspected that his government employers used

some sort of mind control technique to prevent him from

disclosing too much about S-4. While he says he has vivid

conscious memories of the saucers and other technology there were

other memories, that even now, remained locked, which is why he

sought out Keck in the first place. Keck is convinced that

someone really did mess with Lazar's head.



Keck: "Also they used primitive fear in threatening those in his

environment if he did bring this information forth. Also, it

appears that maybe there were some chemicals used."



Lazar: "Nah, I'm not going to change anyone's mind. That not my

intention. I'm just relaying the experience. The job that I

went through. It is a fantastic thing. It's a fantastic story.

I can't take people there to show them what was going on, and uh,

you know, I don't expect anyone to believe it."



What if he is right? What if aliens are here? How would

this change our view of the world? Our most fundamental beliefs,

which is religion? We'll know more on that tomorrow.



=================================================================

s,

w
telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23
---
■ Synchronet ■ Rick's BBS telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23

From: paranet!p0.f422.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin

Subject: Knapp Interview #1

Date: 24 Dec 89 05:08:00 GMT



DATE OF UPLOAD: December 23, 1989

ORIGIN OF UPLOAD: ParaNet Information Service

CONTRIBUTED BY: Chuck Harder/Special Correspondent to ParaNet

========================================================

(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service

All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.

========================================================



INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE KNAPP OF KLAS-TV (LAS VEGAS, NEVADA) ON

NOVEMBER 17, 1989. INTERVIEWED BY CHUCK HARDER, HOST AND

MODERATOR OF 'FOR THE PEOPLE' OF THE SUN RADIO NETWORK.



CHUCK HARDER

My guest has (now) called in and I'm going to run down who he is

and where he's from for a number of reasons, some of them for his

own protection. George, are you there...



GEORGE KNAPP

Hello Chuck.



CHUCK HARDER

Please tell us, you are George Knapp, right...



GEORGE KNAPP

That's right.



CHUCK HARDER

George, what do you do for a living?



GEORGE KNAPP

I'm a journalist with KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, the CBS affiliate

here.



CHUCK HARDER

So you are a TV newsman...



GEORGE KNAPP

Right.



CHUCK HARDER

And you work for Channel 8, KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada...



GEORGE KNAPP

Right.



CHUCK HARDER

I understand that you have come upon some very interesting

information and you've done some special reports, could you tell

us about it...?



GEORGE KNAPP

Well we just finished a nine-part series -- what may be the

longest series that's ever been done on this subject dealing with

UFOs.



Our research actually started about two and a half years ago, a

fellow named John Lear, the son of the guy who invented the Lear

Jet brought some of this information to our attention. In May of

this year, Mr. Lear introduced us to a fellow who claims to have

worked at a secret base designated S-4...on a top-secret Nevada

test site...the fellow said that he worked on flying saucers,

that the technology was not from Earth, and we interviewed him

live in silhouette in May, the response was incredible...we got

response from Japan, parts of that interview aired on radio in

Europe, and six different European countries...so we decided with

this much interest we might want to take a look at the subject in

more depth.



We started doing that and the first thing we found out is that

really UFOs have not been given a fair shake by science, by

government, by religion and especially by journalism. Millions

of people have seen UFOs, millions more believe...I think the

latest Gallup poll shows about 70 percent of college-educated

Americans believe that there's something to it, but because of

the tabloid aspects...'The Girl Who Gives Birth to 52 UFO Babies'

-- kind of things in the National Enquirer, people have shied

away from it...Serious people have shied away. Scientists,

although they might be interested in searching the universe for

radio signals really don't want to look in their own back yard --

they can't get grants...people would laugh at them. Journalism -

- the coverage is generally condescending and quirky, especially

by the networks, as in the coverage of this UFO that supposedly

landed in the USSR, people making fun of it...so, we figured out

that millions of people want to know as Roy Neary, the guy in the

'Close Encounters' movie said, 'What's going on?' So we started

investigating it. The focal point of the story being this fellow

who said he worked at S-4. We broke his identity last Friday.

His name is Bob Lazar, he is a former scientist who worked at Los

Alamos National Labs, he is a physicist...we did a lot of

checking on him and found interestingly enough that his life was

disappearing around him. In other words we called Los Alamos

Labs and they said they never heard of him. We called MIT where

he says he went to school and they had never heard of him. We

called for his Birth records and they had disappeared...as if

someone was trying to make him a non-person. We did however

confirm some of the information that he had given us...we found

newspaper articles from Los Alamos indicating that he had indeed

worked there...we found an old telephone book from the lab with

his name in it, which gave him a certain amount of credibility in

our eyes. The story he tells is an incredible one. He was hired

to work at this area called S-4 on the test site, he was flown up

to a place called Groom Lake -- taken by bus with no windows to

S-4...the base is built almost to look like its part of the

desert with sand covered hanger doors, he goes inside and he

starts reading these briefing papers dealing with UFOs! Pictures

of UFOs on the walls, pictures of aliens, autopsy reports on

alien bodies...things of this nature -- he's pretty amazed. Then

he sees the discs. He says there are nine of the discs up there,

they are powered by an anti-matter reactor which produces its own

gravitational field...technology that does not exist on this

planet, and the interesting thing...he thought for a while that

perhaps it was just an advanced secret scientific project that

our government is pursuing until he looked inside one of the

discs and noticed the small furniture...all the chairs were built

like for children...and then things started coming together for

him. Are you with me Chuck?



CHUCK HARDER

I'm listening.



GEORGE KNAPP

Er, I'm not sure how much detail you want me to go in on...



CHUCK HARDER

Oh I think you ought to keep going.



GEORGE KNAPP

Well, this fellow was up there for only a few months. And it was

a rough place for him to work...the security was so hard and he

was being harassed at home, his phones being tapped...plus he's

on to what he thinks are the secrets of the universe...he starts

to tell other people about it, confide with close friends.



CHUCK HARDER

Ummmmmm.....



GEORGE KNAPP

He had the date of a couple of tests and on two consecutive

weekends he took people up into the desert outside of the

boundaries of area S-4, and they video taped the saucers...what

looks like a saucer coming over the mountains!



CHUCK HARDER

Wow...



GEORGE KNAPP

We showed that video as well...



CHUCK HARDER

Uh-huh....



GEORGE KNAPP

Five different people that we interviewed that had gone up there

confirmed the same story...we also had confirmation of other bits

of his story from other people, a former security guard who

worked up there...who said he had seen the saucers, a former

technician...



CHUCK HARDER

By the way, excuse me, I have some letters from some people

postmarked from that area, one inside of a base, who tells me

what you're saying is true. Keep going.



GEORGE KNAPP

Ah, we also found a Nellis Airman who had been on radar duty at

Nellis airbase which is here just south of the area that this

fellow is talking about...he reported numerous times seeing...



CHUCK HARDER

George, excuse me...let me do the half hour news break, I want

you to tell your story, I want America to hear it...please stand

by.

At this point the SUN RADIO NETWORK runs the half hour news

headlines and sports audio package from UPI<<<<



(After news the guest is re-introduced for listeners who may have

just tuned in...)



CHUCK HARDER

How many reports did you do, George?



GEORGE KNAPP

We did nine total in this series.



CHUCK HARDER

Ok, now at the time we went to news on the half hour you told me

that a scientist named Bob Lazar...



GEORGE KNAPP

Right...



CHUCK HARDER

Ok, came to you and came to the public and apparently was

concerned for his safety because he wanted to tell America or get

news out that - yes, the Federal Government has nine saucers, and

yes they are near...it's near Nellis, is it not?



GEORGE KNAPP

Yes.



CHUCK HARDER

Cause I have letters from people who are at Nellis. Some of

which don't want to give their name, some of which gave their

name, I have the postmarks. Tell us now if you would, start the

story from the fact that the gentleman has revealed that there

are nine of these things. We're listening and so is America.



GEORGE KNAPP

Well, we wanted to try to confirm as much of his story as

possible from other sources of course, so we started looking for

other people who might have knowledge of what's going on up

there...as I mentioned, I found a former security guard who said

that he had seen the saucers up there, I found a former

technician who said that he had walked into a room inadvertently

and saw one under a tarp, we found a Nellis airman who had worked

in radar and said that basically he and his fellow airman has

seen these things flying over the Groom Mountains at speeds up to

7,000 miles per hour on radar...these things would stop on a

dime, so the guy knew that this is not your average airplane

that's doing this. We also interviewed the other people who went

with Lazar up on two consecutive weeks, they test them on

Wednesdays for some reason, and videotaped the tests, saw these

things flying over the mountains and confirmed his story as well.



We put these questions to the Navy, who Lazar says he worked for

up there -- we made Freedom of Information Act requests for

information about the various specific programs he mentioned, of

course the Navy denied having any information on the programs.

Of course in those requests we also asked for other information

about UFOs, stuff the Navy has already released and they denied

having that information as well -- so I don't put a lot of faith

in the FOIA requests.



CHUCK HARDER

In other words, what you're saying is that your organization

which is KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, plus many other UFO research

groups have uncovered many UFO documents that the government

says, 'Yeah, we got them and yeah it's true'...but then when you

ask them again they say, 'No, we don't have them!'



GEORGE KNAPP

Exactly...that's exactly correct!



CHUCK HARDER

I understand from MUFON and many other groups that there are

somewhere from four to seven thousand documents that prove

that...yes these things exist, copies of the documents are in

private hands, then you go and ask the government and they say,

'Well, er, no we don't remember...'



GEORGE KNAPP

The government says that they have done these studies that say

that UFOs are no threat to national security, they're either

psychological aberrations, which means that people are nuts when

they see them, that's what they feed the public...but behind the

scenes they are very concerned about the national security

implications of UFOs that land at nuclear missile bases and can't

be caught, things of that nature. So the government from what

I've read is very concerned about the phenomena and doesn't

really understand it. The government on the other hand has

outright lied concerning what information it does have...the CIA

for example says it doesn't collect any information on

UFOs...well that's just patently not true. We have documents

from the CIA, a lot of it is blacked out, which mentions UFO

studies by the CIA, UFO research, CIA-UFO experts, agency

personnel who are monitoring the phenomenon, so they have lied to

us all along. I didn't expect to get any confirmation regarding

what Lazar has to say, but had to give it a try anyway.



CHUCK HARDER

Before we went to the half-hour break you said that when he

looked inside one of these discs there were little furniture,

give me some information...



GEORGE KNAPP

Well he feels that they were bringing him along, giving him a

piece at a time. He would see a saucer one day, the next he

would see the hanger doors open and see all nine of them...after

that he got to see the inside of the thing. He also got to see a

demonstration of it. He was told to stand back and watch

this...and the thing lights up real bright...I guess the power

that's produced is incredible, you need to produce your own

gravitational field and it raised up, he wasn't sure who was

flying it or was it remotely or what. He watched it raise up,

did a couple of maneuvers and sat back down. Part of the reason

he came forward, not to spill the secrets of the universe or the

government, but because the research that's being done up there

is being handled in a clumsy fashion. If they have had these for

as long as forty years, which is what he believes, they haven't

come to far in trying to understand them. Some of the discs he

said he saw up there were being taken apart, kind of a reverse

archaeology process to figure out how they worked. Some of the

research going on up there is aimed at trying to duplicate the

things that these machines can do using earth technologies and

earth materials and he says it just can't be done. The key to

the flying of the things is something he calls 'Element 115'...it

does not exist on our periodic charts, he believes that wherever

it came from its a naturally occurring element, he says we have

500 pounds of this stuff up there, just a little tiny sliver of

it produces incredible amounts of power. Its the '115' that we

will not be able to duplicate so he thinks...one of the reasons

that he came forward is because scientists all over the world are

working, putting their energy into trying to master the secrets

of gravity and the secrets of anti-matter technology and here

we've got it up there and they're not doing a very good job with

it -- this little batch of scientists hidden out in the desert

are trying to figure it out and not doing a very good job...



CHUCK HARDER

But this is kind of common with the United States government...I

read a tremendous amount of material...I read a tremendous amount

of material...I read five newspapers a day and I'll find where

one group in one part of the country is working on a project and

I'll get a clipping where another group is working on the same

project, I've contacted them and they don't know of each other!



GEORGE KNAPP

Yeah, Yeah -- that's exactly right...he said the

compartmentalization up there was very severe as well so that

nobody had the full picture -- I guess so nobody could spill the

beans as he has been trying to do.



CHUCK HARDER

Alright, what does he feel the public should know and what does

he feel should be done?



GEORGE KNAPP

Well, he's not on a campaign, what he really wanted to do was to

save his own life. He started having some problems when it

became obvious to his employers that he was telling someone else

about this.



CHUCK HARDER

We're talking about Bob Lazar now...



GEORGE KNAPP

Bob Lazar...his phone being tapped, people visiting him, calling

him up with a single word message -- DEAD -- then they hang up!

He tried to arrange meetings with his former supervisor and the

meetings didn't come off, he says somebody took a shot at him on

the freeway...obviously he realizes that if they really wanted to

kill him, they could. Maybe perhaps they were just trying to

shut him up. He feels that what is going on up there is a crime

against the entire scientific community...not only the American

people because we don't know what's going on and we haven't been

told alien technology exists, but also against the scientific

community. So, what else can I tell ya?



CHUCK HARDER

What does he say about the aliens?



GEORGE KNAPP

He's reluctant to talk about that, apparently he did see some

aliens up there...



CHUCK HARDER

Excuse me, are you telling me there were live aliens?



GEORGE KNAPP

Yeah, he's kind of sketchy on the details of that, and I don't

think I should go much further on that...part of the discussion

until I can talk to him, but he has indications that there are

aliens up there, at least one...



CHUCK HARDER

Live?



GEORGE KNAPP

Yeah, it's pretty wild, I know and I didn't include that in our

reports because I couldn't confirm any thing of that nature, I

couldn't find anyone else who had seen them up there so...



CHUCK HARDER

What did they look like?



GEORGE KNAPP

Your classic Grey...the little big-headed almond eyed-grey

skinned being...the same ones in the classic descriptions of the

UFO literature...he's kind of squeamish talking about it as well

because it sounds so crazy...



CHUCK HARDER

I don't think it's crazy at all, there was an article, let me

digress for a moment, there was an article yesterday on the front

page of The Wall Street Journal where the FDA that stopped all of

the grapes from Chile last March...apparently somebody laced two

of the grapes with cyanide a couple of hours before the FDA,

stumbled on them and it was an inside job apparently while the

grapes were in the inspection station...and it was not done on

the way, so somebody's lying there -- we're talking of two little

grapes that almost bankrupted the country of Chile! If two

little grapes...and such a story hits the front page of The Wall

Street Journal about the questions about the truthfulness and

what happened with the FDA, what about this...how would this ever

get out if they would cover up a story about TWO LITTLE GRAPES?!



GEORGE KNAPP

Well, I tell you we asked the question, the obvious question, if

this is true; how can the government keep this a secret all this

time? A story this big -- the government leaks like a sieve on

other things, how could the coverup exist?



CHUCK HARDER

Oh, I'll tell you...



GEORGE KNAPP

To which Lazar responds, this is the easiest...and he asked the

question to his superiors up there, it's the easiest thing in the

world to keep a secret because if it does come out, little bits

and pieces, who's going to believe it?



CHUCK HARDER

Exactly...let me, you remember the Condon Report, do you not?



GEORGE KNAPP

Yes...



CHUCK HARDER

For those who are listening, I got into this investigation

because I kept getting letters from our listeners who said, Chuck

you ought to investigate this...we've investigated many things in

the past such as the GM Diesel coverup, we're working on a pay

phone coverup, we've done things with Ralph Nader...and so on.

So we started buying the books and contacting UFO organizations.

I then found that there was a guy named Phil Klass who was always

there...somehow he as always there and he said that everything

was bunk! And of course, he works for the Aviation Week magazine

which is of course is the mouthpiece for the Military/Industrial

complex and they certainly wouldn't want this technology to be

out! I was also amazed when I saw the stealth bomber (tests)

live on CNN one Saturday and a small plane landed at the same

place, (runway) do you remember that...?



GEORGE KNAPP

Yes...



CHUCK HARDER

My question is: If the Stealth Bomber was so super-secret, how

could a man and his children land their little tiny plane on the

same runway at a super-secret airforce base? How could he have

pierced the radar and fighter jets and so forth? My feeling was,

probably the Stealth Bomber was obsolete and nobody was watching!



GEORGE KNAPP

Yeah, I'd have to agree with you, because the security up

there...the only thing that comes out of that place is what they

want out of it.



CHUCK HARDER

So what your talking about then, since the Condon Committee, Phil

Klass and all the of the spokespeople who are supposed to know

everything, what your saying is the ridicule factor...if Billy

Bob sees a flying saucer and even has a photo of it and takes it

to the paper, everybody laughs at him!



GEORGE KNAPP

There are actual documents the government has released (Under

Freedom of Information Act) that show it has an active program

that started back in the fifties...the CIA even used the term

DEBUNKING, there were discussions about using Walt Disney to

produce cartoons that made fun of people who had seen flying

saucers...they were going to bring Arthur Godfrey in as their

spokesperson. Phil Klass as you mentioned, he's explained away

UFO sightings seen by thousands of people as the constellation

ORION, when you can only see ORION from the other side of the

planet.



CHUCK HARDER

Uh huh...



GEORGE KNAPP

He uses things like Ball Lightning, plasma balls to explain the

sightings where plasma balls only last for a few seconds and the

examples that he is trying to explain occur in cloudless skies

where there is no lightning around. You mention the Condon

report, that's a perfect example of the kinds of things that the

government has done in the past, they commission a study, it's

supposed to be THE STUDY, but the guy they hire to run the thing,

Edward Condon had before he even started, that there was nothing

to UFOs, the government should get out of it, and he also said at

one point that the authors of UFO books should be HORSEWHIPPED!

One of the explanations that came from the Condon Committee

witnessed by several people, they described it as, a natural

phenomena so rare that it has never been seen before or since! I

don't think this kind of a thing is an accident!



CHUCK HARDER

Ok, the Soviet Union and Tass gave their report (of a UFO) and

from what I have heard there are different kinds of aliens, some

have been coming here for years and years and it's nothing new...



GEORGE KNAPP

Right...



CHUCK HARDER

Why is it in some parts of the world (now) they report other

types of humanoids and other types of vehicles...I happen to have

beautiful photos of some, and as I told you off-the-air, we're

going to be releasing them in our upcoming magazine if someone

doesn't stick a dagger through my heart...



GEORGE KNAPP

You're talking about the Billy Meier case, if you want to touch

on that, we also did some investigation on that...



CHUCK HARDER

Ok, go ahead.



GEORGE KNAPP

Billy Meier, I've always been intrigued by that, and wanted to

check them out. Its been pretty much written-off by the UFO

community but when we put questions to them about the case they

can't explain exactly why so we traveled to Phoenix and talked to

Lee Elders one of the lead investigators on the Billy Meier case

and started going over the evidence. The photos had been

analyzed by independent experts, the film footage and video had

been analyzed, the metal sample had been confirmed as something

we don't have -- technology of cold fusion was used to produce

this metal, the landing sites, the strange circular patterns in

the grass that are now only gaining attention in Britain and

other countries, all of this stuff had never been pretty much

discounted by the UFO community because Elders and Wendelle

Stevens had gone outside of the UFO community to get

confirmation. The UFO people were kept out of it, the Billy

Meier case I think exemplifies the biggest weakness in UFOLOGY

and that's the jealousy that permeates the field...everybody

wants to be the only one with the real story of UFOs, so they

kind of written this guy off only because he didn't cooperate

with them.



CHUCK HARDER

We have been able to get some photos from a source who has some

negatives that were just recently located...some from ten feet

away, I used to be in the motion picture business. If they are

models they cost thousands of dollars and I doubt if a simple

Swiss farmer could have done it...



GEORGE KNAPP

I'd agree with ya, the reason we got interested in Billy Meier,

it goes back to Lazar, was because Bob Lazar says, the saucer

that he saw fly, he dubbed it the sport model, was the same

saucer in the Meier photos, exactly the same.



CHUCK HARDER

The new ones or the old ones?



GEORGE KNAPP

The new one.



CHUCK HARDER

Ok, that's the one we've got.



GEORGE KNAPP

Going back to the things he saw (Lazar) at S-4, he saw the nine

saucers, he said all nine of them were different, like we got the

variety pack, but the one he saw fly was like the one in the

Meier photo. (There are Three types photographed by Billy

Meier.)



That's why we decided to check out the Meier part of the (UFO)

story.

At this point Chuck Harder tells George Knapp that there is a

break coming up and after the break would he please tell Mr. and

Mrs. America what they should do to get the truth.<<<<



CHUCK HARDER

I hope that Mr. and Mrs. America make note of the name George

Knapp and Bob Lazar so that if anything ever happens to them, you

know why.



GEORGE KNAPP

Someone should tell us what's going on...TV and movies have

conditioned us...we won't panic...Jimmy Carter when he ran for

President promised that if he was elected that he vowed to open

all the UFO files and he didn't -- we wrote to him asking why and

he didn't respond. We want the government to come clean. If

that takes a Congressional Investigation...that's something that

should be looked at. If it is launched we have to make sure that

there are no CIA, contractors and the like involved otherwise

people aren't going to believe it. We've seen enough of this

whitewash stuff over the years. If there's nothing to the story,

then open up the files and prove it to us!



CHUCK HARDER

OK, have the government let the press into these areas and don't

first clean them out...

---
■ Synchronet ■ Time Warp of the Future BBS - Home of League 10 IBBS Games

DATE OF UPLOAD: December 30, 1989

ORIGIN OF UPLOAD: ParaNet Information Service

CONTRIBUTED BY: Robert B. Klinn - ParaNet Director of

Investigations and Research

========================================================

(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service

All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.

THIS FILE WAS PREPARED BY PARANET ALPHA -- PARANET INFORMATION

SERVICE

1-303-232-6115 9600 BAUD

1-303-232-8303 VOICE

DENVER, COLORADO

NOTE: THESE FILES ARE NOT FOR REDISTRIBUTION OUTSIDE

OF THE PARANET INFORMATION SERVICE NETWORK

========================================================







On the Record, KLAS-TV, Las Vegas, Nevada, 12/9/89, 7:00 p.m.-

7:30 p.m.



George Knapp, producer/host

Robert Lazar, guest



George Knapp:

Hello, and welcome to On the Record.



One month ago, we began a series of reports about UFOs. With the

exception of a few cranky newspaper people, the response has been

overwhelmingly positive. We've had requests for more information

from all over the country and from all over the world. Tonight

we're going to delve a little deeper into the subject with the

man who was the impetus for our report in the first place, Bob

Lazar.



Bob, good to have you here. A thumbnail sketch of yourself for

those who might not be familiar with your background.



Robert Lazar:

I worked at Los Alamos National Lab.



Knapp:

As a physicist?



Lazar:

As a physicist, and hired as a senior staff physicist at Area S-

4, for what I was told anyway was the United States Navy.



Knapp:

Where is S-4?



Lazar:

It's about 10 to 15 miles south of Groom Lake, about 125 miles

north of Las Vegas.



Knapp:

How did you get the job?



Lazar:

I really don't want to mention the guy who I got it through. But

I was referred to a person at EG&G to drop off my resume to;

that's where I was interviewed; though the job is COMPLETELY

unrelated to EG&G.



Knapp:

What did they tell you you were going to be doing? Or DID they

tell you?



Lazar:

No, they really didn't tell me until the very end. They said a

high-technology job, something that I'd be very interested in.



Knapp:

Okay, so you get hired. And what happens? Do you fly up there?



Lazar:

Fly up there. First day was reading briefings and that sort of

thing. And it became evident to me pretty quickly the level of

technology they were dealing with: gravitational propulsion and

things that science has really only barely touched on.



Knapp:

We'll get into the things that you saw in a couple of minutes.

But it's been about a little more than three weeks since your

identity was made public. We had you on another program a couple

of months ago -- using an assumed name and having you in

silhouette -- but since your identity has been made public and

since this information has been made public, what's it been like?

What's been the response from people that see you on the street?



Lazar:

The response has been almost all favorable. In fact, everyone

that I've run into has been very supportive, very interested. I

guess there's just two or three letters --



Knapp:

-- from people that don't believe you?



Lazar:

Yeah. Essentially.



Knapp:

Responses from other media outlets as well?



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

They want to interview you? What do they want?



Lazar:

Essentially everything, yes. Radio interviews, TV interviews. A

lot of people want to dig back into my background and re-trace

everything.



Knapp:

Many of the people who have been calling -- calling us as well --

were under the impression that either you've gone underground or

you've been silenced or we've been silenced by dark and sinister

forces. Anything like that happen to you so far?



Lazar:

That's ridiculous. People are always going over the deep end on

that. And no one's told me -- other than originally -- not to

say anything. And I'm sure no one's come forward to you.



Knapp:

But in the beginning, they told you to keep quiet about this.



Lazar:

Oh yeah! It's the most secret program in the United States.



Knapp:

In what way did they try to make sure you kept your mouth shut?



Lazar:

Everything up to death threats. I mean CONSTANT reminders of it,

signing away my constututional rights for fair trial and that

sort of thing.



Knapp:

And since this thing, your phone's been tapped, you believe?



Lazar:

Yeah, I believe. I have a tap detector, and occasionally after I

pick up the phone, a little red light goes on.



Knapp:

The reason you came forward with the information to begin with?

Is it related to the fact that they were bothering you?



Lazar:

Yeah, it was essentially to stop that. What had happened was, I

sent in a request for my birth certificate, and as it turned out

it wasn't there anymore, that I wasn't born at the hospital! And

that kind of got me wondering what's going on. I put in a

request for some other information, previous jobs, and that was

also gone, and I thought something had to be done before I

disappeared.



Knapp:

The same thing -- it was Los Alamos? They've never heard of you?



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

Anything happened since the reports have aired?



Lazar:

They let me know that they were around by doing stupid, childish

little things. But nothing serious, no.



Knapp:

You were worried about your LIFE though for a while there,

weren't you?



Lazar:

That was one of the reasons to come on and let everything out on

the air; it's a little of insurance.



Knapp:

Are you worried any more? Do you get the feeling you're over the

hump?



Lazar:

To some degree, yeah.



Knapp:

Do you find that most people really believe you or that they just

want more information?



Lazar:

I think alot of people believe what I said, but the majority I

think do just want more information, too. It's an in-depth

subject.



Knapp:

Let's look at some of the technology you saw. When did you first

get the idea, what's the first thing you saw that made you

convinced that it's not from here?



Lazar:

The first thing was HANDS-on experience with the anti-matter

reactor.



Knapp:

Explain what that is and how it works and what it does.



Lazar:

It's a plate about 18 inches in diameter with a sphere on top.



Knapp:

We have a tape of a model that a friend of yours made. You can

narrate along. There it is.



Lazar:

Inside that tower is a chip of Element 115 they just put in

there. That's a super-heavy element. The lid goes on top.



And as far as any other of the workings of it, I really don't

know, you know, [such as] what's inside the bottom of it . . .



115 sets up a gravitational field around the top. That little

wave guide you saw being put on the top: it essentially siphons

off the gravity wave, and that's later amplified in the lower

portion of the craft.



But just in general, the whole technology is virtually unknown.



Knapp:

Now we saw the model. We saw the pictures of it there. It looks

really, really simple, almost too simple to actually do anything.



Lazar:

Right.



Knapp:

Working parts?



Lazar:

None detectable. Essentially, what the job was was to back-

engineer everthing, where you have a finished product and to step

backwards and find out how it was made or how it could be made

with earthly materials. There hasn't been very much progress.



Knapp:

How long do you think they've had this technology up there?



Lazar:

It seems like quite a while, but I really don't know.



Knapp:

What could you do with an anti-matter generator? What does it

do?



Lazar:

It converts anti-matter . . .

It DOESN'T convert anti-matter! There's an annihilation

reaction. It's an extremely powerful reaction, a hundred percent

conversion of matter to energy, unlike a fission or fusion

reaction which is somewhere around eight-tenths of one percent

conversion

of matter to energy.



Knapp:

How does it work? What starts the reaction going?



Lazar:

Really, once the 115 is put in, the reaction is initiated.



Knapp:

Automatic.



Lazar:

Right.



Knapp:

I don't understand. I mean, there's no button to push or

anything?



Lazar:

No, there's no button to push or anything.



Apparently, the 115 under bombardment with protons lets out an

anti-matter particle. This anti-matter particle will react with

any matter whatsoever, which I imagine there is some target

system inside the reactor. This, in turn, releases heat, and

somewhere within that system there is a one-hundred-percent-

efficient thermionic generator, essentially a heat-to-electrical

generator.



Knapp:

How is this anti-matter reactor connected to gravity generation

that you were talking about earlier?



Lazar:

Well, that reactor serves two purposes; it provides a tremendous

amount of electrical power, which is almost a by-product. The

gravitational wave gets formed at the sphere, and that's through

some action of the 115, and the exact action I don't think anyone

really knows.



The wave guide siphons off that gravity wave, and that's

channeled above the top of the disk to the lower part where there

are three gravity amplifiers, which amplify and direct that

gravity wave.



Knapp:

In essence creating their own gravitational field.



Lazar:

Their own gravitational field.



Knapp:

You're fairly convinced that science on earth doesn't have this

technology right now? We have it now at S-4, I guess, but we

didn't create it?



Lazar:

Right.



Knapp:

Why not? Why couldn't we?



Lazar:

The technology's not even -- We don't even know what gravity IS!



Knapp:

Well, what is it? What have you learned about what gravity is?



Lazar:

Gravity is a wave. There are many different theories, wave

included. It's been theorized that gravity is also particles,

gravitons, which is also incorrect. But gravity is a wave. The

basic wave they can actually tap off of an element: why that is

I'

m not exactly sure.



Knapp:

So you can produce your own gravity. What does that mean? What

does that allow you to do?



Lazar:

It allows you to do virtually anything. Gravity distorts time

and space. By doing that, now you're into a different mode of

travel, where instead of traveling in a linear method -- going

from Point A to B -- now you can distort time and space to where

you essentially bring the mountain to Mohammad; you almost bring

your destination to you without moving.



And since you're distorting time, all this takes place in between

moments of time. It's such a far-fetched concept!



Knapp:

Of course, what the UFO skeptics say is, yeah, there's life out

there elsewhere in the universe; it can never come here; it's

just too darn far. With the kind of technology you're talking

about, it makes such considerations irrelevant about distance and

time and things like that.



Lazar:

Exactly, because when you are distorting time, there's no longer

a normal reference of time. And that's what producing your own

gravity does.



Knapp:

You can go forward or backward in time? Is that's what you're

saying?



Lazar:

No, not essentially. It would be easier with a model. On the

bottom side of the disk are the three gravity generators. When

they want to travel to a distant point, the disk turns on its

side. The three gravity generators produce a gravitational beam.

What they do is they converge the three gravity generators onto

a point and use that as a focal point; and they bring them up to

power and PULL that point towards the disk. The disk itself will

attach ONTO that point and snap back -- AS THEY RELEASE SPACE

BACK TO THAT POINT!



Now all this happens in the distortion of time, so time is not

incrementing. So the SPEED is essentially infinite.



Knapp:

We'll get into the disks in a moment. But the first time you saw

the anti-matter reactor in operation or a demonstration -- you

had a couple of demonstrations -- tell me about that.



Lazar:

The first time I saw it in operation, we just put -- a friend I

worked with, Barry -- put the fuel in the reactor, put the lid on

as, as was shown there.



Immediately, a gravitational field developed, and he said, "Feel

it!" And it felt like you bring two like poles of a magnet

together; you can do that with your hand. And it was FASCINATING

to do that, impossible, except on something with great mass! And

obviously this is just a . . .



And it was a REPULSION field. In fact, we kind of fooled around

with it for a little while. And we threw golf balls off it. And

it was just a really unique thing.



Knapp:

And you had other demonstrations to show you that this is pretty

wild stuff, right?



Lazar:

Yeah, they did. They were able to channel the field off in a

demonstration that they created an INTENSE gravitational area.

And you began to see a small little black disk form, and that was

the bending of the light.



Knapp:

Just like a black hole floating around?



Lazar:

Yeah, well, a black hole is a bad analogy, but yeah, essentially.



Knapp:

And they gave you some kind of demonstration about time,

involving a candle? Explain how that works.



Lazar:

Yeah, they took a candle and lit it and put it in the distorted

gravitational field, which distorts time, and the candle just

stood there. It didn't melt or burn. It was REALLY

unbelievable!



Knapp:

You had to be floored by seeing all this.



Lazar:

Oh I was! That's why I'm kind of laughing about it now because

it must sound ridiculous to everyone. But it's just phenomenal.

I mean this is really alien technology.



Knapp:

About the 115: We talked a little bit about it in the series of

reports. Explain what it is again and why you believe it could

not be manufactured here.



Lazar:

Okay, it's a super-heavy element: On the periodic chart, which

lists all the elements found on earth and that can be

synthesized, I think the highest element we've synthesized has

been about Element 106.



Now from 103 -- or actually, anything higher than plutonium up --

the half-life begins to drop; in other words, the element

disintegrates. When you get up to Element 106, it's only around

for a very small amount of time. Even science today theorizes

that up around Element 113 to 116 -- somewhere in there -- they

should again become stable. This is in fact true. That's what

Element 115 is; it's a stable element.



To synthesize it would be impossible. The way we synthesize

heavy elements is, we take a stable element like bismuth or

something like that, or plutionium, whatever, put it in an

accelerator, and BOMBARD it with protons. Essentially what

you're trying to do is plug in protons into the atoms and

increase the atomic number. To do that to the level of Element

115 would just take an infinite amount of power and an infinite

amount of time.



Knapp:

What kinds of things, what capabilities would a heavy element

like this have -- I mean other than producing power? Obviously,

it can produce a LOT of power, right?



Lazar:

It in itself is not anti-matter. It just has a unique property

of producing it. Any of the other basic properties it has I

really don't know of. But using just the anti-matter-producing

property, the potential for a weapon is staggering! It's

absolutely staggering!



Knapp:

Like what? A pound of it: what could it do?



Lazar:

Well, 2.2 pounds is the energy equivalent of 47 10-megaton

hydrogen bombs. I mean, it's a good bang! And a pound of a

super-heavy element is maybe the size of a plum or something like

that.



Knapp:

I guess what I've heard most from people who just don't buy the

whole story is that sure, maybe you work at an area called S-4,

and maybe it is a secret area, but what you were shown is stuff

that we've made. That we made this 115 -- if it is 115 -- that

we made the flying disks, that we made these anti-matter

reactors, because these are advances that you just don't know

about.



Lazar:

Hardly.

[Lazar laughs.]



Knapp:

Why not?



Lazar:

Well, the 115, it's impossible. And the FACT that the main job

of everyone there is to find out how everything's made; I mean

that just contradicts everything right off the bat. The

materials are completely alien to us, and just the overall idea

of the project is: Hey, can we duplicate this with materials

that we have here? So obviously, it was something that was found

or given, for that matter, and we're just trying to duplicate it.



Knapp:

The 115: Where do you suppose it came from then? I mean, what

kind of environment would that kind of element come from?



Lazar:

The only place that 115 could be made would have to be in a

natural situation, somewhere maybe on the fringes of a supernova

or somewhere around maybe a binary star system, where there was

more mass in the primordial mix of that system, where heavier

elements would have had a chance to form, when the stars were

collapsing and there were huge amounts of energy being released.

It's something along these lines; it has to be a naturally-

occurring element.



Knapp:

You saw an anti-matter reactor. You saw gravity-propulsion

systems in flying disks, flying saucers. You saw this Element

115. You also read a series of reports that had other stunning

information. Can you give an overview of the kind of things that

were in these reports?



Lazar:

The reason I didn't do that before was, first of all they were

just reports. Everything else I had hands-on experience with.



Now there was LOTS of strange information in the reports, but

there again it's just printed material and it could be

disinformation. I don't know. But certainly, the information I

did read in the reports about 115, the disks, the grav -- I mean,

that all had material that related to that.



The reports went into aliens and even went along the lines of

religious --



Knapp:

Well, we can let our audience know. I mean we discussed this,

when we were putting this series of reports together, whether to

get into the alien thing or not, and we decided not to for the

time being. It's not like you're hiding something from the

audience or whatever, it was just a decision we made. But you

did see reports -- whether they're true or not -- Government

reports about aliens.



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

What were the reports?



Lazar:

There were photographs of aliens. There were autopsy reports.

There was really a wealth of information.



Knapp:

What did they look like?



Lazar:

The typical "grey." I hate to say that, like anyone knows what a

typical grey is. It's a creature, probably three and a half to

four feet tall, a large hairless head, black, slanted eyes, long

arms, very thin-looking. I don't know how else I would describe

them.



Knapp:

What does an autopsy report look like? What's included in an

autopsy report that you said you read?



Lazar:

The reason I call it an autopsy report is I saw the carcass -- it

was obviously a dead alien -- carcass cut up and it was all dark

inside like it had an iron base. The reason I say iron is

because it was very dark blood or whatever. I'm not a doctor,

but it seemed to be one large organ in the body as opposed to

identifiable heart and lungs and that sort of thing, but just one

gooey mess in it.



Knapp:

What did the report say? It had pictures; it had to have some

words: "Here's Exhibit A, an alien"?



Lazar:

Essentially so! They had weights and densities of the organs,

said there were no conclusions drawn, but it was just a basic

description of what the person who was cutting open the body saw.



Knapp:

Say where they came from?



Lazar:

Yeah, in one of the reports it said they came from Reticulum 4,

was what it said.



Knapp:

Where is that? Any idea?



Lazar:

[Lazar laughs.]

Well, I'm told it's a star system in Zeta Reticuli. Reticulum is

the constellation.



And by "Reticulum 4," they meant the fourth planet out from that

sun.



In the same reports, we were identified -- instead of saying

Earth, we were identified as "Sol 3," meaning the third planet

out from our sun.



Knapp:

Now you've read a lot of UFO material. Do you find yourself

mixing what you've read and what you've learned from up there?



Lazar:

No, that's why I stay away from the UFO researchers and things

like that. I really don't want to be associated with that. I

don't research the stuff. It's interesting to read, but no, I'm

not mixing anything that I've read into this stuff.



Knapp:

We were just talking about the UFO field in general, and you feel

a little reluctant to get mixed up in it, although you ARE right

now.



Lazar:

Unfortunately, yeah.



Knapp:

Why the reluctance?



Lazar:

I don't know. There are so MANY stories circulating around.

Everyone has their own view. Each UFO researcher says they have

the right story. And essentially, I don't want to side with

anyone because I don't know where that information's come from,

though they do all have the basic story: you know, there ARE

alien crafts here; how they got here is, probably aliens brought

them here, unless we really have a neat setup with the UPS.



There's just so many different factions of them [UFO

researchers], and they all kind of war between each other; I

really don't want to get associated with them.



Knapp:

Before you got into the program at S-4, though, you had an

interest in UFOs. It must be hard for people to swallow that

here's a guy who has an interest in it and he gets hired into the

program.



Lazar:

Well, there was a very brief time there I had sent out resumes to

several places, and I wanted to get back into the scientific

field again. Almost simultaneously, I met John Lear and read

some of his material. And initially, I thought he was just

absolutely crazy. But apparently, he did have a good source of

information because, as it turns out, some of the information

that he had I actually had hands-on experience with.



Knapp:

But your regard for UFOs in general: As a scientist, did you

think there was something to it?



Lazar:

Absolutely not.



Knapp:

Absolutely nothing?



Lazar:

No. I would have stood on that 'til the day I died.



Knapp:

Many of the people who have been calling are UFO groups or UFO

researchers who have demanded that you talk to them: We've got

to talk to this guy; we want to give him a lot more publicity so

he stays alive; we want him to give us information so that we can

further check out his background, etc.; we want to protect him;

we want to help him.



You've resisted. You've done this program; you've done a couple

of reports with us; and you've done a radio show or two; in

general, you've resisted going into the UFO circuit. Why is

that?



Lazar:

Just like I mentioned before: I just don't want to be associated

with those guys.



And how many people are you going to open up your background to

and let them run rampant through it? I mean, private detectives,

every UFO group in the world wants to do that! The idea was for

me to release the information, essentially to protect myself and

take some of the heat off. And I've done that. And that's all

that needs to be done, really.



Knapp:

Certain UFO researchers claim they've been getting information

from you all along; you've been leaking stuff to them; and that

they've read these reports that verify the information. You've

been working with UFO groups while you were in the program at S-

4?



Lazar:

Not UFO groups. I did mention a couple of things to some people.

That's all I'm gonna say.



Knapp:

Okay. In essence, were you breaking your vows that you made to

the Government?



Lazar:

Yeah.



Knapp:

And why did you feel that was necessary? I mean, you took an

oath, didn't you?



Lazar:

Yeah. But look at the magnitude of what was going on. I believe

that some of the technology -- maybe all of the technology --

should be kept secret, until we have a handle on everything. But

certainly, the overview of what happened just cannot be a secret

from anyone -- not just the American people, but the rest of the

world.



Let out the basic fact that we have these craft, at one time

aliens did at least visit and drop off something, however they

got here, that there was some contact made, and then cut it

short. You don't need to release the information on the gravity

generators, the weapon potential -- which is enormous -- and so

on.



Knapp:

What could you do with that technology? Say you took the flying

disks, the anti-matter reactors, the gravity generators, gave it

to Los Alamos or Livermore, let them examine the potential

abilities of this stuff. I mean, how would this affect life on

earth if this stuff was widely available?



Lazar:

And mass-producable?



Knapp:

Yes.



Lazar:

That's tough to say. I mean, you have a completely different

mode of travel. What happens when you can play with time? That

gets into a really deep philosophical question there.



Knapp:

But I mean, it would change a lot of stuff, change everything.



Lazar:

Oh yeah! It would change absolutely everything!



Knapp:

Do you think it will ever come out?



Lazar:

Personally, no.



Knapp:

What do you hope happens, both with yourself and with this

information?



Lazar:

There's been enough thorns put in their toes to where they do try

and release something.



Knapp:

We'll have to have you come back, Bob. Thanks for joining us.

---
■ Synchronet ■ Time Warp of the Future BBS - Home of League 10 IBBS Games

========================================================

(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service

All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.

========================================================







Robert Lazar/Billy Goodman, KVEG-AM Radio 840

Based on its original three-hour, 11/21/89 broadcast, the

following is KVEG's one-hour version, played at midnight 12/31/89

and at midnight

12/7/90:



Goodman:

You came on the CBS affiliate here in Las Vegas, Channel 8,

saying there are flying saucers not too far from here. I don't

want to say Area 51, right?



Lazar:

Right. It's Area S-4. A lot of people get that confused. It's

about 10 miles south of Area 51, of Groom Lake, which is Area 51.



Goodman:

When people try to get down that dirt road, they get stopped by

cars and everything. What are they protecting there?



Lazar:

Oh, Groom Lake -- that's Area 51.



A lot of projects are going on at Groom Lake -- Area 51:

Aurora -- a high-altitude, reconnaissance aircraft designed to

replace the SR-71, some Star Wars research --



But there aren't and never has been any flying saucers at Area 51

at Groom Lake.



Goodman:

You have been at Area 51, so you can say that unequivocally,

right?



Lazar:

Oh yeah.



Goodman:

Did you spend most of your time at S-4?



Lazar:

Groom Lake/Area 51 has a runway there, so if you want to go out

to that part of the Test Site, you fly in and land at Groom Lake

and then you take a bus south to Area S-4.



Goodman:

Have you actually landed on that airstrip at Groom Lake?



Lazar:

Yeah, every time I went out there I HAD to land there.



Goodman:

How often would you go out there?



Lazar:

It wasn't on a regular basis. They called me up and said, well,

Thursday by 4:45, be at such and such a place and get on this

plane, and, you know, you'll be out there. I hadn't worked into

a regular schedule yet.



Goodman:

You're sitting at home and they say, you will be at a certain

place at a certain time, or you will arrive there? How do you

make sure you can make connections to get there at 4:45? Do they

take care of all that for you too?



Lazar:

No, I just have to show up there. If I can't make it, I just

have to tell them or call them with sufficient notice.



Goodman:

But they want you there for a specific reason because --



Lazar:

-- well, to get on a specific flight.



Goodman:

And they want you there at Groom Lake so you can get to S-4.



Lazar:

Right.



Goodman:

When you get there, what are they usually looking for you to do?



Lazar:

That varied. Mainly educating me, catching me up to where

everyone else was.



Goodman:

Grooming you.



Lazar:

Yeah.



Goodman:

And what were they grooming you for, Bob?



Lazar:

I dealt with mainly the propulsion of the extraterrestrial craft.

There was a lot of material to read, a lot of briefings, a lot of

research that had been done for quite some time that I had to

catch up on before I could really get into it myself. So most of

the time I spent reading and going over some things.



There was some hands-on experience with some of the equipment

from the discs and things of that sort.



Goodman:

Let's bring you back to the beginning. You're a young man, let's

face it, you're a young man. What was your first reaction the

first time you knew for a fact that we had flying saucers in our

possession? You saw them with your own eyes. What was your

first reaction to this?



Lazar:

Oh, it was exciting! What else can you say? It was really neat.

The first time I saw it and I walked in and actually saw the

disc, of course I couldn't say whether or not it was an alien

device or just an interesting craft that we've been developing.

So it was a little while before I had ascertained that it was an

extraterrestrial craft.



Goodman:

Did they ever explain to you how it got there?



Lazar:

No, that I was never told. But they just took things very

slowly. First I was exposed to the craft, and then I began to

read the briefings. And they were monitoring me through the

whole time, so they let me take things one step at a time, as

they do for everyone that works there.



Goodman:

You got to be honest with me. Here you are a young man. You

left there and you went home to the wife, to your neighborhood,

sitting around having a cup of coffee. Did you ever say, hey

man, you won't believe this, there are flying saucers!



Lazar:

Oh, I stuck with "the program" for a little while.



Goodman:

Well, what was "the program": Don't tell anybody?



Lazar:

Oh, most certainly.



Goodman:

Being inquisitive, I'm sure, as a young man, did you ever say,

why is it that we can't tell anybody?



Lazar:

No, because being involved with many other classified projects at

the other labs that I worked with, you don't ask that. You just

assume that they know what they're doing. You're privileged to

be in that project, so --



Goodman:

So you just felt honored being there.



Lazar:

Exactly.



Goodman:

And you'd get home and sit there with the wife at the dinner

table and not even talk about it?



Lazar:

Well, that didn't last for too long.



Goodman:

I can imagine, I mean: "How was your day today, dear? Anything

exciting happen?" What would you say?



Lazar:

Not a whole lot. It caused a lot of friction, a tremendous

amount.



Goodman:

Because you couldn't speak up -- you couldn't talk about what was

going on.



Lazar:

Right.



Goodman:

Is your title "scientist"?



Lazar:

Physicist, but scientist is a good all-around description.



Goodman:

As far as you're concerned, there is no extraterrestrial activity

up at Area 51 or Groom Lake. Has that always been the case?

Because I heard, and I also read government papers -- maybe they

lied -- but they said that Area 51 was the area where the U-2

came out of.



Lazar:

That's where the U-2 came out of, where the SR-71 came out of.

Lots of things came out of there.



Maybe a disk went THROUGH there. But they're just not stored and

developed/worked on there. Sure, one may have rolled by there

and someone may have -- There have been lots of reports of people

at Area 51 who have said, at one time I saw a disk in a hangar.

That may have happened, but it wasn't there permanently.



Goodman:

We took a group of people up there, about 200. And I was up

there with them. I sat in the desert and I watched.



And here's how I could describe it. Picture the 29-1/2-mile

Marker, and we're leaking out at these peaks. All of a sudden

over the peak something comes up. It appears over the peak.

It's just a light. And you watch this light and you see it doing

ZIGZAGS!



Something's happened out there! Planes that we have that do

those kind of maneuvers?



Lazar:

Well, without seeing it, I can't say. But I know when the tests

are.



Zelly:

I watched you on the Channel 8 program, and my dog was barking

when you were explaining the gravity theory.



These craft don't use any type of gasoline, is that right?



Lazar:

Any type of GASOLINE?



Zelly:

Yeah.



Lazar:

No, they don't.



Zelly:

Okay, how do they get from A to B?



Lazar:

They bend space and time, using gravity.



Zelly:

Can you explain that to a layman like me in as simple terms as

possible?



Lazar:

I can give a fairly accurate description. I haven't given this

before, but I think this is the best one.



The crafts have three gravity amplifiers on the bottom of them.

What they do, assuming that they're in space; it's just easier to

get this across that way:



They will focus the three gravity amplifiers on the point they

want to go to.



Now to give an analogy, take a thin rubber sheet, lay it on a

table, and put thumbtacks in each corner. Take a big stone, set

it on one end of the rubber sheet, and say that's your UFO or

spacecraft.



Pick out a point you want to go to -- which could be anywhere on

the rubber sheet -- pinch that point with your fingers, and pull

that all the way up to the craft. That's how it focuses and

pulls that point actually TO it.



When you then shut off the gravity generators, the stone or your

spacecraft follows that stretched rubber back to its point.

There's no linear travel through space; it actually bends space

and time and follows space as it retracts.



Zelly:

Is there a box on the craft that does this gravity focusing?



Lazar:

It's a complete system; it's not a single little box.



Zelly:

That's so hard to understand. Did you understand this easily?

Did you comprehend this over months or years?



Lazar:

No, it didn't really take very long. The concept is difficult to

grasp.



Jeff from Canyon Lake, CA:

Last Saturday night my cousin and I were out at Groom Lake, and

we saw from the peak that I think you were describing, Billy, a

very similar experience. We saw the lights originally over the

top of the mountains and streak out to about a half a mile away

from us and then just vanished. It lasted for seven to ten

seconds. Then my cousin saw another sighting off to the south

where your guest described the site.



What was weird -- I got out the camera and was just about ready

to take a picture and it vanished from the center out! It became

transparent and all of a sudden it was gone. It was like nothing

that I've ever seen before. What could it have been?



Lazar:

Without seeing it, I really can't say.



Goodman:

There is a theory that they can dematerialize or all of a sudden

be so quick to get away from you that you lose sight of it

instantly. Is that true?



Lazar:

You can lose sight of it without it even moving because -- just

in view of the way things work -- when they warp time and space

around the craft, they can actually --



This is the exact reason you can see stars behind the sun,

because the sun has an intense gravitational field and it pulls

space AROUND where you can begin to see the star behind it. It's

just like in a disk: You can be looking straight up at it, and

if the gravity generators are in the proper configuration, you'll

just see the sky above it; you won't see the craft there. That's

how there can be a group of people, and some people can be right

under it and see it, and there can be people 100 feet off to the

left and not see it. It just depends how the field is bent.



It's also the reason why the crafts APPEAR as if they're making

ninety-degree turns at some incredible speed; it's just the time

and space distortion you're seeing; you're not seeing the actual

event happening.



Roger Number Two:

Have you seen any aliens there?



Lazar:

You know, I really don't want to talk about aliens at S-4. It's

just a weird topic.



Roger:

Three days ago on the Billy Goodman Happening, a worker at

Mercury came on. Did you hear that show?



Lazar:

No.



Roger:

He went 3,000 feet underground, and when the elevator opened it

was a stainless steel atmosphere. He's a worker laying electric

wiring and lighting for this vast complex at Mercury. And he's

been working there quite awhile.



He told of the Marines down there with fixed bayonets that herded

them into certain areas, took them out of other areas. And one

day, he saw some doctors there with white coats -- smocks -- and

they were wheeling along on gurneys some aliens with big heads,

small bodies, arms, and so forth.



Lazar:

This is in Mercury?



Roger:

Yes.



Lazar:

That's a strange place for that to occur, though I have heard but

do not have first-hand experience of any tunnels and things down

there. Certainly, they have very deep tunnels and rooms under

there for the nuclear tests. I don't know if they go down to

3,000 feet, though I think someone was just recently killed at

1,500 feet underground -- that was in the paper, so everyone

knows they at least go down THAT deep.



Roger:

The information I have is that most of the underground areas are

about 1,000 meters.



Lazar:

I really don't know how far they go down THERE. The thing that

strikes me as unusual is you said there is a stainless steel

atmosphere?



Roger:

Yes. That's the way he described it. They were putting up

sheets of stainless steel because apparently they drilled with

some kind of machine in this vast complex underground in the

tunnels, and they had to put something to COVER that.



Lazar:

I understand what you're talking about now. In fact, I happen to

know of somebody that drills those tunnels down there.



Roger:

Are they the type that go through and push the top off the earth

to the SIDE and have square corners to compact it, leaving no

residue?



Lazar:

I really don't remember how the person described it to me. I

think it's a 24-foot-diameter drill that is driven, and it's

hydraulically operated, and they just DRIVE the thing.



Roger:

But it must not leave any residue then.



Lazar:

Probably not. Either that or it channels it out backwards and is

somehow relayed out of the hole.



Guardian Angel:

Does Bob feel secure after he's left this out. I pray no one has

made any attempt on you at all?



Lazar:

Well, they made attempts on me before, but not since. And as far

as feeling secure, no, I don't. I'm really waiting for the

repercussions.



Guardian:

I wish you would really stay close to the show with Billy. I

think we would enjoy talking and asking questions of you. And

you'd better believe that they would have to answer to us if all

of a sudden you would come up [wrong.]



You said Wednesday nights are normally when these saucers are

seen.



Lazar:

Right.



Guardian:

Can I ask you what your clearance was out there at S-4?



Lazar:

I'd rather not say because the name is --

It's 38 levels above Q-Clearance, which is the highest civilian

clearance; it is SUPPOSED to be the highest civilian clearance.



Goodman:

It starts at Q and goes from there -- one, two, three? Is that

how it works?



Lazar:

I don't know what the intermediate levels are.



Goodman:

You don't know if there are 37 others; it's just the number they

gave you; is that correct?



Lazar:

No, there ARE 37 others.



Kevin:

I was interested in the condition and shape of the disk that he

claims he saw up at Area S-4 on the Range.



Lazar:

The condition and shape? The condition seemed new, as I said on

the TV program. It seemed almost brand new, like I said, if I

know what a new flying saucer looks like. As far as the shape,

have you ever seen any of the Billy Meiers photographs?



Kevin:

I've seen a couple, yes.



Lazar:

There's one that it bears a striking resemblance to. It's one --

I coined the term the Sport Model. It doesn't have any weird

protrusions; it's a slim, thin disk with ridges in it, and it

bears an incredible resemblance to that; and I tend to think that

it IS that disk.



Kevin:

Approximate dimensions?



Lazar:

Approximately 30-35 feet by 15 feet tall.



Kevin:

How close were you allowed to be?



Lazar:

I stood inside the doorway.



Kevin:

Were you able to determine what the metallic makeup was?



Lazar:

No.



Goodman:

Did you touch it at any time?



Lazar:

Oh yeah.



Goodman:

What does it feel like?



Lazar:

It feels like ordinary metal.



Goodman:

Like aluminum?



Lazar:

Can you feel the difference between steel and aluminum?



Goodman:

Steel is colder than aluminum, I understand, to the feel.



Lazar:

I'm not a metallurgist.



Goodman:

Reports say there's a very thin feel to it.



Lazar:

I didn't feel the thickness of it; I felt the outside. It could

be a micron thick or a foot thick; I wouldn't know.



Goodman:

You say you never saw the metal itself off to the side.



Lazar:

Not pieces of it, just the disk itself.



Goodman:

What was the disk doing?



Lazar:

Sitting there.



Goodman:

How was it sitting there? On the bottom?



Lazar:

Yeah, it was on tripod legs; they were actually resting on the

bottom of the disk.



Goodman:

Were there people milling around it?



Lazar:

Not at the time I walked up to it, no. There were people in the

area, yeah.



Goodman:

Is that the only one you ever saw?



Lazar:

No, I saw the other ones but at a great distance.



Goodman:

What were THEY doing?



Lazar:

They were just parked in the hangars.



Goodman:

Like an airplane.



Lazar:

Essentially.



Goodman:

You never saw them land or take off?



Lazar:

No, never. I don't even know if they were operational.



Deadhead Dean:

I took a class in quantum physics.



Lazar:

That's a fun class, wasn't it?



Dean:

Yeah, it was for me. But we studied a lot about gravity. We

studied about gravitons.



Lazar:

The theory of gravitons is wrong. But physics has always done

that: Where there's a question, they create a particle. You

must know what I'm talking about -- photons and things like that.



Dean:

Have you found anything that confirms the existence of gravitons?



Lazar:

No. Everything denied the existence of gravitons. Gravity is a

WAVE, and there are actually two waves that are misconstrued as

one force. And they're called Gravity A and B.



Dean:

What's you general attitude about quantum physics and the quantum

theory?



Lazar:

That can last all night. If you want to talk to me privately

about that, I'd be happy to talk to you.



Dean:

I'm interested in how it connects with the Grand Unified Field

Theory. We were told that if we could confirm the existence of

some of these quantum particles, we could fit in --



Lazar:

Right. I don't want to say my number over the air; that would be

a disaster. You could write in care of the station, and Billy

could get it to me and I could write back to you. The Unified

Field Theory is a lot more simple; they say the BEAUTIFUL theory

will be the Unified Field Theory; it is a lot simpler than

physics is after right now.



Dean:

On the KLAS show you said the extraterrestrial crafts you saw

were from another solar system completely. Do you believe that

because you know where they are from or because you just ruled

out any of the other planets in the solar system as habitable?



Lazar:

No, that's because I know where they're from.



Goodman:

Where are you actually working right now, Bob?



Lazar:

I have my own company; I work for myself.



Goodman:

Are you inventing things? What do you do?



Lazar:

I'd rather not say.



Goodman:

That's your privilege, sir. I just thought I'd give you a plug,

if it's a business.



Lazar:

I still conduct business with the Government in a technical

aspect.



Goodman:

A consultant-type thing maybe?



Lazar:

You could say that.



ETC:

Does "M42" mean anything to you?



Lazar:

Not of the top of my head.



ETC:

Okay, very good.

How do you rate Hawkings?



Lazar:

Stephen Hawkings? There's a lot I could say about him. A lot of

the basic theory is incorrect. But he's a very thorough guy.

Have you read his book?



ETC:

Yes I have. I'm an experimental researcher.



You're a physicist. Now, how far back do you go as far as

traveling backwards through time? Can you go to the Big Bang

theory and then subscribe to it?



Lazar:

I'll go with the Big Bang theory, but there are so many other

variables, so many other things really could have happened,

that's more of a cosmology viewpoint. I'm concerned mainly with

particle physics, high-energy physics, and that sort of thing.



ETC:

Isn't that where it all began?



Lazar:

Yeah it is. But when you're talking on a macro scale like that,

you're sliding out of my field of expertise. I do subscribe to

the Big Bang theory; there WAS a big bang. Where the initial

particle came from -- there's a great debate about that.



ETC:

Could you give me an estimate where they're getting creation

versus evolution? Was the big bang a part of evolution or was it

a part of creation? And was there a creation or an evolution

before that?



Lazar:

Well, that's a chicken or the egg question, to me. I would say

that the big bang was followed by a natural evolution, though I

don't think things just evolved to where everything is now

without interaction.



ETC:

Very good. I guess I'm going back too far. You seem to be a

real logical scientist; you don't want to go out on a limb with

theories; you want to stick to facts.



Lazar:

I'd really rather do that.



ETC:

And that's very good.

And what IS the fact? How far can you really trace us back, to

absolutes, where you drop off from absolutes into your theories?



Lazar:

Probably from the instant of detonation of the big bang.



ETC:

That's microseconds, right?



Lazar:

I'd say even before that.



ETC:

Okay, very good.



Lazar:

It might go into --



ETC:

Do you feel the new telescopes coming up into space will help

solve that mystery?



Lazar:

Oh yeah. It will certainly pose a lot more questions though.



Goodman:

What is this Big Bang theory?



Lazar:

How the universe was initiated. I think the way that was

detected was, someone looked and just happened to notice that all

the galaxies were moving AWAY from a certain point at certain

speeds. And they did a computer analysis and, I'm not really

sure how this progressed, but they were able to reverse the

directions and everything came to a single point. And they

assumed that there was at one time an unbelievable massive

particle that exploded.



Goodman:

Like a meteorite-type thing? Bigger than that?



Lazar:

Actually smaller than that. It gets really crazy.



Goodman:

But this thing that did explode . . .



Lazar:

Right, there was a tremendous explosion. It threw EVERYTHING

out; gases and things condensed into matter and essentially

formed the universe: that's the Big Bang theory.



Goodman:

How many flying saucers have you seen?



Lazar:

Nine.



Goodman:

And you know for a fact they did not come from here, right? Or

where do you think they came from originally?



Lazar:

I didn't see them delivered. My best guesstimation is that they

came from another, well, another world.



Goodman:

And when they are flown in this S-4 area, are they flown by

aliens or by military pilots?



Lazar:

They're either flown by remote control or flown by military

pilots. I say either remote control or people because I did not

actually see who got into the disk.



Goodman:

Did it look like there was a lot of room in the disk? How large

were these things?



Lazar:

No, there's not that much room inside.



Goodman:

You'd have to be small, I would imagine.



Lazar:

Right.



Space Case:

I heard John Lear talking about drugs and hypnosis being used on

individuals that are working with the ET project. Do you confirm

that?



Also, when the guys were at the Red Rock area or wherever the

vortex is at Blue Point, someone said they had a scar on their

shoulder or arm after the encounter. John mentioned that anyone

who was involved or abducted, drugs and hypnosis were used on

him. Do you know anything about that? Is it possible that group

could have been abducted by people involved with the project, why

they lost time, and why some of them had scars, like maybe there

was a hyper- or gravity or something like that?



Lazar:

I have no information on abductions.



The drugs and hypnosis: Now, I found out about this -- though

supposedly this happened to me -- I found out about this through

regressive hynosis. I had vivid memory of everything, but there

were a couple of days that I only remembered going out on a plane

and coming back on a plane, and I thought it was really strange.



I decided to try a clinical hypnotist. His name is Layne Keck at

Serenus Clinic here in Las Vegas. He had no idea what we were

talking about -- anything to do with UFOs. I wanted to go with

someone that was completely unbiased.



And I just stepped back under hypnosis ENTIRE DAYS so I could

read -- re-read the reports and things and get things a little

clearer.



And there was just an INTENSE drilling period of rhythmic yells

in a room with some guys continuously threatening me. I said --

under hypnosis -- I was drinking something that smelled like

pine, which even sounds strange to me, but I heard myself on

tape, and as I describe this -- I'm not that familiar with

hypnosis -- but Layne said it's similar to something the military

uses called "The Orion Method," some sort of regimented hypnosis.



Space Case:

John said that's why most of this stuff there is kept secret,

because the people that work there -- when they first go up there

-- are indoctrinated with the drugs and the hypnosis.



And then when they leave the site or wherever they're working on

this stuff, they go back to their normal way of living and have

no memory of it.



Then when they come back into the security, they walk through a

room or something triggers them into a trance or regimen again.

And then they work under hypnosis having no memory.



Then when they come back into the real world, they forget again.



And that's why these people can go on these missions and go down

to Africa and pick up these saucers, nobody having any record or

memory of it at all. Does that make sense to you at all?



Lazar:

That sounds cool, but I don't know. I can't confirm or deny

that.



Obviously, something is done, something WAS done in the area of

hynosis to me, and I'm sure, other people that work there. But

whether they can turn you on or off, I really don't know. Maybe

they can do that. It sounds even far-fetched to me, but I really

don't know.



Goodman:

You don't think it's possible that as you arrive in the morning,

the effects have worn off, and you get in there and you do your

job.



Lazar:

I can't say anything is impossible anymore because I keep finding

out different. Sure that's possible. But I'm a nuts-and-bolts

guy and I can't say, as a matter of fact that is true and that's

false. I don't know.



Goodman:

But there must be some power that they have over everybody, Bob,

that they leave there everyday, go back to their families;

something has to occur.



Lazar:

Yeah, but how come I had total memory of most of the stuff I was

involved in then?



Goodman:

I'm not saying you, per se. I'm saying other people up there.

There must be something where they have a way of controlling

them, so that when they leave there they forget or they just go

into something else.



Lazar:

Right. I have a hard time believing everyone can adhere to "the

program." I mean, how strong can you possibly be? Yeah, there

must be a way. It can't be just threats.



Tim:

Are you familiar with the latest scientific evidence: Right in

the center of our Milky Way galaxy there's a black hole --



Lazar:

Black hole, yeah. That's not very late; they theorized that

awhile ago. As a matter of fact, it's now thought that in the

center of EVERY galaxy there's a black hole.



Tim:

How sure are they that they have one in ours?



Lazar:

I really don't know.



Tim:

You said you stepped in the doorway of the spaceship. Did you

actually step onto the spaceship?



Lazar:

Yes.



Tim:

Did it make a sound when you stepped on it?



Lazar:

No.



Tim:

What color was the inside interior?



Lazar:

It was all the same color as the outside -- just a dull aluminum

finish, is the best way I can describe it.



Tim:

When you worked for this agency, what method did they use to pay

you? Did they send you a check every two weeks, or what?



Lazar:

Checks, yeah.



Tim:

Do you have the check stubs?



Lazar:

I don't want to talk about that right now.



Tim:

But you got paid by check?



Lazar:

Right.



Tim:

You said the way the aliens travel in the spaceships they

generate the gravity, and it pulls one side of the universe

towards it --



Lazar:

Yeah, I wouldn't go as far as the universe, but a great distance

toward it, yeah. They can't exert a gravitational field

throughout the universe -- just some limited distance -- I don't

know what it is.



Tim:

But do they do it toward the Earth?



Lazar:

No, toward the craft, wherever the craft is.



Tim:

When they want to go to Earth, they aim it toward the Earth?



Lazar:

Right.



Tim:

Do you think this is the reason why I occasionally feel dizzy?



Lazar:

I doubt it.



Tim:

If you built a spaceship that travels at the speed of light and

you turn on the headlights, what would happen?



Lazar:

Exactly what would happen if you had a spacecraft, for instance,

traveling at the speed of light and you were sitting on the front

of it and you fired a bullet that also moved at the speed of

light. People ask, how fast does that bullet move in relation to

a stationary object? And the layman would say, twice the speed

of light. But no, nothing ever exceeds the speed of light

because mass increases and so on and so forth.



But if you're a spacecraft, of course it can travel AT the speed

of light, but if it APPROACHES it, can you turn your headlights

on? They don't do very much good.



Chris:

I theorized that gravity transcends conventional space-time, and

that a massive object at one end of the universe is attracting

instantaneously objects at other parts of the universe --

extremely subtle effect, obviously, how many angels on the head

of a needle.



And I have one question about Fleischman and Pons.



Lazar:

That's an interesting group.



Gravity propagates instantly, by the way.



Chris:

I've been interested in theoretical physics for the last 20

years; I've driven myself crazy. And I disagree with Steven

Hawkings too.



Lazar:

I don't want to shoot down Steven Hawkings; he's a brilliant man.

There are some basic physics that are wrong.



Chris:

Could you comment on Fleischman and Pons? I maintain that they

are correct and that this hass been covered up by the oil

companies.



Lazar:

I don't agree with that.



Chris:

In the fusion method that they're using, obviously we don't have

a football-sized-field machine creating their fusion, so electro-

chemical-reaction fusion seems to me very plausible, rather than

inertial magnetic confinement.



Lazar:

Inertial magnetic confinement is garbage, and so is laser fusion.

It's ridiculous.



Laser fusion is totally stupid. The concept is there, but the

materials aren't, and to start a laser reaction the lasers have

to fire MANY times a minute. We can initiate a reaction -- I

think our best laser is Shiva [sp] down at Livermore. I think

that has to cool down for several hours. It's a tremendous waste

of money.



Dennis in L.A.:

I'm a member of the Operating Engineers, Local 12. I work in the

Los Angeles area. Is Reynolds Electric part of that base out

there?



Lazar:

No, Reynolds is not out there, and neither is any other

subcontractor -- Reynolds, EG&G --



Dennis:

Are they up in Tonopah?



Lazar:

Reynolds is at the Test Site proper, the nuclear test site. I'm

not that familiar. The highest clearance they can attain is Q,

through REECO and EG&G and those guys. So the closest they get

is down to Area 51 and roam around there.



Gary:

You said you came public with this information to protect

yourself.



Lazar:

Yeah.



Gary:

How serious is this? What length will the Government go to

conceal this?



Lazar:

Oh man, you must be kidding! Everything possible! I can't even

describe it. Any length at all. I don't even know what to say

to answer that.



Gary:

What's on your horizon now, as far as the Government's concerned?

Aren't they gonna want to talk to you?



Lazar:

I think that would be a really strange thing for them to do. Any

action on their part right now would guarantee what I'm saying is

true. So I think now it's going to be a hands-off policy, which

is just absolutely fine with me. That's the only thing I wanted.



It's only been a week since anything has gone on. In fact,

someone said, if they're following me now, it's to make sure

nothing happens to me.



Gary:

I heard you speak of Blue Diamond before. What's going on there?



Lazar:

I love this subject! That's where the "vortex" is. There is no

vortex. Blue Diamond is a place where people gather to look at

supposedly an entry-way for flying saucers. They don't enter

through that. If you want to see a vortex, I suggest you flush

your toilet and look inside.



There's a gravity anomaly there -- a slight difference in

gravity, the gravitational wave there -- but those are all over

the place. It has nothing with anything.



Goodman:

Is it because you know the past record of the Government, how

they react to situations? If someone becomes more public, they

tend not to do something that would cause them problems?



Lazar:

No, I don't know that for a fact. I'm just HOPING that.



Gene Huff (in studio with Lazar):

Billy, I think there's a minor misunderstanding here. I think

people have gotten the impression that he was in "the program,"

actively in there and for some reason he decided he was in

trouble and just decided to get out.



All of this stems from them beginning not --

Again, he just went out there on a periodic basis -- more or less

on call. And after he got caught out there showing John Lear,

myself, and the other people the flying saucer tests, after that

they debriefed him, and after that they continued to monitor his

phone. His phone was tapped. And what they wanted to stop --

and why he thinks they might do something -- is, they THREATENED

him. And they called him on the phone and threatened him because

they were monitoring basically his plan for the exposure of this.



And that's what they wanted to stop. In fact, we've got the word

through the grapevine that they're amazed; they don't know what

to do because they've never had someone that used drugs, used

hypnosis, drilled in their head not to come forward with this,

and they can't believe that a guy actually went on television.

And they're really at a loss for what to do.

---
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